State schools and an easy life or independent?

[TremoloGreen]

We’re doing a bit of financial planning at the moment – our 5/10 year plan – and the issue of schooling has come up. We’ve been leaning towards state education for the following reasons.

A private education is very, very expensive these days and I’m not sure what you get over a good state school is worth the money. A not very scientific survey of people we know (I’d say roughly half are state-educated) suggests to me that the key to being happy and successful in life is a stable, loving family and a can-do attitude/’drive’. These things seem to have more bearing than whether one is state or independently educated.

We could, at a push, afford independent, with a bit of help from our parents. However, it would mean watching the pennies and no fancy holidays. It would also mean that we would both have to work very hard, full-time. At the moment, I only work part-time and DH works full-time but with a good work-life balance. Also, we’d be more dependent on inheritance to fund a comfortable lifestyle in retirement, and I guess there are no cast-iron guarantees with that. In the likelihood that we do get the inheritances we’re expecting, we’d have more cash to help our children with buying homes etc.

We’re in the process of moving house and the area we are moving to has a choice of very highly regarded single sex state schools (non-selective though) or a good, mixed independent school. All the primaries we would have a chance of getting into are ‘outstanding’. There are plenty of extra-curricular activities on offer in the local area. We’re deliberately not buying a particularly flashy house, so we have the choice of what to do with our money. Tying it up in one property/ having a massive mortgage scares me!

The reason we’re wavering is that state education is an unknown to both of us. No-one in either of our families has been to a state school so we don’t know the reality of it. The class sizes concern me, I don’t understand how each child can get enough input – will I really have enough time to do all the extra needed at home? People seem surprised that we would consider state if we can afford independent – do they know something we don’t?

farewell is right word and my DS2 are at "toppety-top schools" with matching toppety top fees so we do know that if your DC's are at these kind of school that the education they receive is in a completely different league from anything the state offers, but note we are still not saying go for independent education or that our DC's will have better outcomes, I'm personally paying for what he receives now for looking only at future benefit in terms if career etc.

It is about what you value, many Asians and others value education above everything else they see it as an investment and will sacrifice a lot to get this education, others value other things and are happy with their state options and having spare money. Frankly for me if it was a choice between an expensive hand bag (are handbags really that expensive) then as a non handbag lover education wins hands down but we are all different. That's fine don't let non handbag lovers others sway your decisions to much do what you feel comfortable with.

Oh word don't shatter my dreams! I'm hoping as as a very competent rider, a cattle lover and a lover of the "big country" I would have a time of my life?

Lots of people who would have in the past been able to privately educate their children, have been priced out in recent years. Private school fees have for the last 15-20 years risen by about 5% per year.
Friends of mine who fell into State education for their children (often just didn't get the ever inflatingly high entry marks for the local boys school and didn't want them to commute for hours), have been surprised how good the state education has been and have chosen it for younger siblings.

The key factor whatever is: how involved/supportive parents are. Parents may contract this out by providing the "best" schooling, or may choose to be more involved. If you have the money being able to target it on extra tuition where needed or saved for University seems the best of all worlds, if you have a good state option.

There are also poor private schools, private schools which ask pupils to leave because "they just don't fit", private schools who go broke, and lots of private schools where far too many pupils also have private tuition on top (and not just music etc.).

Of course there are also fabulous private schools, and dreadful state ones.

Money doesn't guarantee what you get.

happy you would probably love it, but I am not remotely hardy. In fact the opposite. When it comes to comfort I am like a cross between Madonna and Charles Saachi!

Very true mummy.

There is an independent school not too far from me that has people wetting their knickers over it, but I just wouldn't give them one red cent of my hard earned cash.

My DS1 was at an outstanding high achieving academy (there words not mine) and is now at a well regarded 6th form, I looked at our local "normal" independent schools for him for yr 9 onwards, frankly I couldn't see that much difference ok more manicured lawns but no more space (we're rural) very similar results, good average and indifferent teachers in both, and yes smaller classes in the independent sector, but worth the 18k+ a year I came away unconvinced.

Oh good word I can carry on dreaming.
This time next year the light will no longer be at the end of the tunnel but almost touchable we will be waiting for the last school fee bill (DH cracks open large bottle of champagne, cared worn expression starts to recede). Frankly I'm not sure where time has gone.

As ever it depends what you're after. And what's on offer.

At prep I really really wanted a school with a very clear home/school partnership. Contrary to what mummy said about 'contracting' out, I wanted to be super involved at the primary stage.

A boy was I expected to be. Support from home (and to some extent attendance at school by parents) was part of the remit.

Again something to think about OP. What commitment does each school expect of you and can you give it?

We've used both, and my view is that having the option of going private expands your choice for each child at each level. Our DDs were state infant, state junior, private secondary, state sixth form college educated. DD1 now happy at good uni. DD2 has A levels this year, and we are paying for 1 hour of private tuition in each of 2 subjects once a week to help her as she has mild dyslexia (and one of the teachers in one of the subjects is awful at the college). She is hoping to get a place at a good uni.

DS is younger, and went to a state infant, and is now at a private prep (funded by GPs). If we were paying then he would be at the same state junior which was very good, as we'd be saving to pay for private senior school, where we think the greatest difference is, in this area. We'll still look at state secondary when we get to the right time, but our current preference is for one of the private schools.

So, look at the schools, and then decide. If you can do a bit of both state and private it will make it much more affordable.

I'm not sure how helpful we're all being OP most are saying it depends on you, what you and your family want from life/education and your local schools in both sectors.

Well I don't have to make a decision about their school today. This is more about whether to keep school fees aside when planning financially. I'm self-employed and could easily work more, that will always be an option.

I know enough about the primary schools and what I want for early education to think that we are unlikely to bother with prep. I think I'll make sure we have options for secondary (that's what I'm more worried about anyway) when planning financially.

I'm pretty sure our parents didn't agonise like this over our schools, they just sent us to the one they went to!

Assuming your dcs aren't at school, yet.

You try the local state school. You count your blessings you can move if and when you wish. You may well be very pleasantly surprised. I think it's good for parents and children to at least try the state sector, my dcs have been in both systems (will spare the boring details of why they moved but it would have been bad for the eldest to stay in state primary, youngest would've been fine). As they say "I'm glad we know not all people go skiing every winter holiday and to their villa all summer long."

Send them to the state school and if you are not happy with it, send them to an independent.
That's what we did, and no regrets - they have had a very happy time at the independent whilst they were bored at the state.
That's just us - your mileage may vary!
I teach in lots of state schools and some indies (supply teacher).
In state schools I teach every subject, lots of science and maths (as there is a massive shortage of teachers in those subjects) although they are not my specialist subject, don't have even a science GCSE. In the indies I teach only my specialist subject because they insist on that. Also, they are less likely to use supply teachers as their 'own' teachers have a reduced timetable to ensure lessons are covered by specialists.
We can afford it, and so it was a no-brainer.
If you can't afford it, then don't agonise, just keep a close eye on how happy they are and if anything needs 'topping up' with tuition.

We overstretched ourselves for private primary (actually we didn't initially, but circumstances changed and it's gone from being affordable to an almighty stretch). Don't do it. DO NOT STRETCH YOURSELF! I think being able to work part time and be there is far more important than whether you have a private or state school. I WISH we'd thought ahead. Schooling is only going to get more expensive each year.

We have three children. Two are now in state school, and the youngest is seeing out his final 18 months in private primary (I did look at moving him for the start of year 5, but the school we would have moved to has an acting head, so I thought we'd just suck it up and stretch and scrimp to see him to the end of year 6).

I can't see that much difference between state and primary. Small class sizes aren't always a good thing. DS2 really struggled with the small class size in private primary and is far, far happier milling about in his massive year at secondary (year 8 now).

If you have loads of spare cash, sure have a look around and see which school you think is the perfect match. But if you don't have it then don't even go there.

I grew up in a mix of state and private schools (state-private-state) and my children have done the same (private-state). They're honestly not that different - whatever some would have you believe (mainly people who haven't set foot in a state school for 30 years).

A one-time username for this...

OP, since you have options at this point, it's a no-brainer that you should keep them open. Don't make choices that would make it impossible to send your children private. If the best choice for them (or the best value, considering everything important to you) turns out to be state, well and good.

We came to parenthood late in life. By the time ours came along, we'd had plenty of opportunity to observe friends' and colleagues' children going through the local (very well-reputed) state schools. They were fine, until or unless your child needed something expensive in the way of individual attention. Then I heard my friends and colleagues talking about yet another email or meeting with school at which things were promised that didn't transpire, or at which they were made to feel guilty because the teachers were already giving 110% to the job and simply didn't have time for what this child needed. Sometimes they stuck it out, often they moved the child into a private school eventually.

Then our first child turned out to be profoundly gifted (see why I wanted a one-time username for this?) I visited the local state school and was impressed by their professionalism - but not by their resources. It was clear that, while we could start DS at the local primary, there was just no way he was going to stay there happily challenged to the age of 11. We'd have been faced constantly with the question of how much it was reasonable to ask for special treatment for him, when we'd have known the effort put into that was effort that didn't go into some other child's education. I didn't want that, and I didn't want him to have more school moves than would be necessary, so we decided to send him to prep school from the start. It's been excellent. The chief benefit of small classes is not, principally, what goes on in the classes: it's that the teachers don't feel overwhelmed with getting through the day and the marking. Faced with a child who needs something unusual, their eyes light up and they see an interesting challenge - and they not only come up with good ideas, but they actually follow through. They may not be better teachers than in our local state school, but they are in an environment that lets them do better teaching. I wish all children could have that, and I vote accordingly, but in the meantime, I want to do the best for my child.

In the early years, we thought DS would move into one of the local "normal" private schools for secondary. In fact, the prep school being one that often sends to "toppety top" schools, our eyes were opened to that possibility, and he's going to one of those. Boarding seems like a different prospect as you see your children moving into adolescence and being keen on it. Our holidays have always been in Europe anyway, and for the senior school years they'll be cheap holidays in Europe - but it's for five years, and there are great places in the UK to visit, so really, who cares? So even if you think now that you'd never want that, you might change your mind later. Keep your options as open as possible.

Of course it does depend somewhat on where you live. We have a good choice of local state schools and the local private schools are nothing to write home about. It may be different if all your state schools are in special measures or need improving.

No, our town is regularly on those 'best places to move for education' type lists. The state schools are some of the best in the country and all offer things like IB, MFL stream with humanities taught in second language, good range of school trips etc. Also have a choice of orchestras, good sporting facilities but I know they won't rival the independents on that front. We can offer those types of opportunities outside school though - I play four instruments myself to a high standard. School league table type results either rival or are below the independents by a small amount.

The main thing that worries me is class sizes and stretching the more able child - OK, I'm being presumptuous that our kids will be able, but DH and I both were, so it's a possibility. I'm not sure how much influence I can have outside school once the children are teenagers. Basically, I could encourage them to read widely, nurture their interests, take them to opera, theatre and encourage discussion understanding of current events. But would they decide that all that is not cool?

WordFactory - you said you would look at how schools stretch able children. What exactly would you look for?

Wait. Your DC will soon show you what they need.

This says it all, really. Since you can afford to move into an area with multiple school options, and you have the good senses to not over invest in your house, settle in and save your money. Begin the dc's at one of the state school's, then adjust as needed.

A state education can be excellent, and your home purchase largely solves that as you have the choice of where to move, and where to move again if you wish. An independent education is rarely bad, but it can be the wrong one for an individual. Either option can result in a social nightmare for a particular child.

I am sure, if you are well educated yourself, that you can supplement anything you feel is lacking between a state school and the many out of school activities that also contribute.

It does very much depends on where you live. We have few "normal" independent secondaries around here and many of those struggle to fill their vacancies, just "toppety top"big names, there are two reasons for this we live in a wealthy area, lots of old money; families that will only consider "topety top"big names and excellent state schools including grammars without catchment and high performing comps so normal families don't feel they have to pay.

OP we moved our very bright DS2 from a quaint village primary with small classes never more than 18 usually less than 12 to a prep at yr 2 because we were told that thay had neither the resources interest or time to meet his academic needs, needs which I should add they'd identified!
Prior to doing this I looked at the counties top performing very pushy primary the sort people murder their neighbours children to get into, the head was quite honest, he too was unable to meet DS2's academic needs and advised me to pay for what he needed

On the stretching able children - it's only one experience but the reason I am wondering if I was correct sending dc2 to a private very selective prep at 7 is she is pretty able and says she was more stretched at her primary where they were arranged in ability groups and the top group was given very challenging work indeed. You can't extrapolate all primaries will be the same but it is interesting, especially as this was a bog-standard primary not a sell-a-kidney-to-move-into-catchment, fake-religion one. It's a variable which at this stage isn't worth worrying about.

Basically, I could encourage them to read widely, nurture their interests, take them to opera, theatre and encourage discussion understanding of current events. But would they decide that all that is not cool?

So what if they do? Must they have the same interests as you for you to feel they are succeeding?

Or do you just mean they will catch some sort of 'can't be bothered' virus from their state school classmates? Keep in mind, in an area like you are contemplating, the state school is going to be filled with children like your own, many with independently schooled parents like yourself who, like you, have to balance work/home and choose to not need to earn and pay school fees.

In any case, whether or not the children cooperate with school(and parents) into their teenaged years doesnt have much to do with your educational choices. That's down to your kid and their way of experiencing and responding to expectations. Sure kids seem to all be cooperative and studious at independent schools. That's not magic, that's down to independents having the option to reject students. Though that still leaves students skate by with very low grades and behaviour issues.

There are plenty of children in the independent sector who don't think it's cool to read widely, go to the opera/theatre discuss current events etc. these are teenagers we're talking about, who are trying to work out what life is all about, where they're going, who they as individuals are. My mother was completely obsessed interested in ecclesiastical architecture, I spent large chunks of my life being dragged around tiny churches I only wanted to ride horses and milk cows, as a teenager I would be seen dead looking at a Gothic arch, now Lincoln Cathedral is my most favourite buildingI haven't owned or even sat on a horse in 10 years and no longer work in the dairy industry. It's normal to reject some of our parents interests as teenagers.