State schools and an easy life or independent?

[TremoloGreen]

We’re doing a bit of financial planning at the moment – our 5/10 year plan – and the issue of schooling has come up. We’ve been leaning towards state education for the following reasons.

A private education is very, very expensive these days and I’m not sure what you get over a good state school is worth the money. A not very scientific survey of people we know (I’d say roughly half are state-educated) suggests to me that the key to being happy and successful in life is a stable, loving family and a can-do attitude/’drive’. These things seem to have more bearing than whether one is state or independently educated.

We could, at a push, afford independent, with a bit of help from our parents. However, it would mean watching the pennies and no fancy holidays. It would also mean that we would both have to work very hard, full-time. At the moment, I only work part-time and DH works full-time but with a good work-life balance. Also, we’d be more dependent on inheritance to fund a comfortable lifestyle in retirement, and I guess there are no cast-iron guarantees with that. In the likelihood that we do get the inheritances we’re expecting, we’d have more cash to help our children with buying homes etc.

We’re in the process of moving house and the area we are moving to has a choice of very highly regarded single sex state schools (non-selective though) or a good, mixed independent school. All the primaries we would have a chance of getting into are ‘outstanding’. There are plenty of extra-curricular activities on offer in the local area. We’re deliberately not buying a particularly flashy house, so we have the choice of what to do with our money. Tying it up in one property/ having a massive mortgage scares me!

The reason we’re wavering is that state education is an unknown to both of us. No-one in either of our families has been to a state school so we don’t know the reality of it. The class sizes concern me, I don’t understand how each child can get enough input – will I really have enough time to do all the extra needed at home? People seem surprised that we would consider state if we can afford independent – do they know something we don’t?

ok, I'm afraid I don't understand the difference

I could encourage them to read widely, nurture their interests, take them to opera, theatre and encourage discussion understanding of current events. But would they decide that all that is not cool?

Oh come on, sweetie, our kids aren't all knuckle-dragging illiterates who can only grunt at reality TV, you know. Admittedly they huff and think their parents are hopelessly uncool but that's because they're teenagers, not the effect of their education. In fact the reality of my Inferiorettes' reading habits is entirely driven by their school librarian (yep, with real books and everything. Some of them not even with pictures) rather than by me because she is apparently much better at this stuff than me.

Very true MI.

And things can change in ways you can't imagine. I would never have considered DS particularly academic in the early years. He was decidedly average. Not especially curious. Not especially articulate.

Then he just clicked. Nothing terribly dramatic. One day he was scoring average grades, the next 100%. Took us all by surprise.

And DD has loved her secondary school, really thrived. But she wants to change for sixth form. This has also taken me by surprise.

With your kids, nothing is set in stone and you have to be prepared to be very flexible .

My cloth-eared child, who doggedly refused to take part in school plays, suddenly came over all thesp at age 10 and I've just consented to GSCE drama, which I'd never have considered at one point (out of block-headed academic snobbery on my own part, I freely confess).

I think the twists and turns of our DC's likes/dislikes/interests/abilities are part of the great tapestry of childhood.

I've certainly had my mind opened by my DC. And even the fucking awful stuff has been worth the experience (although not always as repeatedly as forced on me).

my big, big reason for not going private is: life is unpredictable. We can afford fees now on our salaries, but I have been unwell in the past and maybe again. DH may decide he can't cope with his job. If anything like that happens, I would like to know or children's education is safe. They won't be hauled out of private schools on top of a turbulent time elsewhere. This doesn't apply of course if you have huge savings or a trust fund.

But we put a LOT of time and effort into making sure they are at the best state schools we can access.

Things that it turns out I like;

Football.
Choral music.
Dogs.
Hiking.
Harry Potter.
Theme parks.

Things that it turns out I do not like but am glad(ish) I tried.

Camping.
Ice skating.
Water theme parks.
McDonalds.

One thing to bear in mind is relocation : some of my gym friends have their kids in boarding schools because their DHs get relocated around the world at comparatively short notice.
May or may not be an issue for OP but stability is a factor to think about.

You have got ages to figure it out and jobs/finances change a lot in ten years. And it depends on your local schools - in our city we have a private school that is not as academic as the same sex state school - totally depends in an individual school and how your child will like it.

Our state primary, encourages values, e.g. perseverance, a summer play, Christmas nativity, special assemblies weekly to celebrate achievement, show work the children have been doing, and residential trips.

I mean really very lovely, pleasant parents, children and teachers.

May I add also rural.

The time you can spend at school with your child is valuable, I have been on 3 school trips, attend assemblies, helped with guided reading. Not required there are plenty of people offering, you join in with what you wish.

Can I also offer an alternative point of view on moving children, I feel it is disruptive, and ideally to be avoided. I think the friendships children make have positive benefits, and should be valued.

Our school has a nursery on site age 3 & 4, which i would particularly recommend as the child is already used to the site/staff, avoiding the starting school feeling at 4/5 altogether.

I would just like to add - don't be afraid of the state system. A class size of 30 actually means 30 children, one teacher, at least one teaching assistant (more in Reception), learning support assistants as required, and any number of volunteers as required. The children have to be taught to their level, so lots of individual support in most cases.

Certainly where I live, the privates achieve good results because they select and filter, but a bright and supported child will do well at either. I was chatting to friends with children at very highly regarded pre-prep and preps and they were clear. Education equal to state, but better facilities, and they mainly paid for the "net working advantages" (their words, not mine...)

Not really relevant to you OP as your DC are too young, but going private to avoid the almighty fuck up that is going to be the new GCSEs would be worth every penny.

In fact going private to avoid the endless government interference in education is almost worth the money in itself.

Oh good - everything useful has been said since I was last here.

HG how are you with teeny, tiny planes? I arrived in Billings by road but originally flew from Denver to Sheridan, Wyoming (bit more "authentic" one street place) in a terrifyingly small thing - over open jawed red mountains just waiting to swallow me up.)

We did herd cattle. And ride (rather badly in my case.) But it was mostly artistic endeavours. Billings was at the end of the stay. I'd love to go back, it is the coolest place.

OP I think everyone on your thread has experience of both. It's not at all unusual. (We have done everything from perfectly average state schools to the very tippest top boarding.) However, unless the independent schools you are considering are extremely well established it's more than likely that they will not exist in their current form in ten years time - so keep your alternatives in play.

Words right (again) independent schools are thankfully free of continuous government interference I'm assuming this is why many now choose the IGCSE/IB and Pre U. They set their own agenda.
DS2 was also re markedly unmusical on leaving prep, despite the fact that DH and DS1 are musical, four years later much to my surprise he wishes he'd taken up an instrument and his music taste is becoming increasingly eclectic. You never know what your children will do.

Zero I'm fine with everything, especially if I thought there was rounding up cattle at the end if it. Fortunately for me not only was I a very competent conventional rider I was also in my day a competent western rider I think the whole thing is made for me!
Do you really think independent ed for the most part won't exist in 10 years time? How do you draw this conclusion? I take by "well established" you mean big name boarding schools many increasingly filling their vacancies from abroad and big name primarily London day schools. I've thought for a while that the writing was in the wall for St Elsewhere (a small unknown day school in the Shires) because state ed will be equally as viable but I personally have yet to see evidence of this. Perhaps it's because we don't have many St Elsewheres round here? Or all that we had have gone to wall 15-20 years ago.

I think the big names will be fine. But so many St Elsewhere parents here are sustaining sudden nasty shocks with school closures, or noticing a cutting back of facilities.

My parents could never have put more than one child through (an almost major) public school now - not from two very average professional salaries. Even when parents can scrape the money together it simply isn't viable when the rest of your child's life is going to be so cut-throat.

Dunno. I'm rambling. I don't see the end of independent education within a decade, no. But (outside a handful) the OP's local options will have merged or become co-ed or find themselves in strange new partnerships that haven't been invented yet.

Ultimately on these sort of threads, people defend their own choices.

And ultimately, you will provably end up doing the same (or similar) to other friends (parents) with similar socio economic status.

Group think

MN is wonderful for bringing different groups together on one board...

I love reading both sides of the argument. For entertainment and education!

Mmmm I agree zero, state ed is without a doubt improving; schools that were frankly diabolical when DS1 was born (we lived in a very run down area of London at the time) have now significantly improved, fees are increasing and parents unsurprisingly want to see something back for their considerable expenditure. St Elaewhere can't offer a substantial difference. Of course the big name boarding schools are now completely out of the reach of a couple of professionals on an average salary especially if you have more than one child.

Zero
The demise of private schools has been predicted many, many times.
I cannot see it happening in a hurry.

At the moment there is a fees arms race to the top (because the big name schools can) but once the Russians and Chinese are surrounded solely by other Russians and Chinese, they will start to seek out more diverse schools.

Also the tippety top schools get part of their kudos by being where the titled send their sons. Which they won't if they are utterly outnumbered.

Therefore more parents will choose other schools and spread the cash around.

Non selective private schools will always survive for the purposes of creating silk purses out of silver spoon sows ears.

Provincial private schools ebb and flow according to market forces.

But I do not think that the pissing around with GCSEs / AS / A2 levels will cause a massive flight to Independent schools

• for economic reasons
• IB and PreU are so off the radar for most colleges / Universities / employers that they do not confer other than a snob advantage.
• and mainly because I think a lot of it will be shelved come May.

Can't see the demise of private school happening. Middle class status anxiety is stronger than ever I think!

Tremelo I suppose that my take from the imparted experience on this thread is yes do save for future education as you cannot predict what may be the best educational experience for your DCs' needs and future interests. Those savings can be kept for university or blown on several expensive family holidays (Montana or Northern Idaho ranches included) but will allow the flexibility.

One of our criteria in choosing schools is that I / we did not want to be an educator of my DCs (much the best way for our shared sanity) or their main prompt for 'cultural' exposure. The twists and turns of their developing interests have meant that shared family experiences have very much been two way.
Economic constraints aside, enriching experiences may be just as much about valuing mixing with lots of different DCs (without snobbery or inverse snobbery) as the range of extracurricular opportunities or whatever.

TP I didn't intend to predict a national demise - just musing on how the OP's long term plans might be scuppered.

However, when you say

Non selective private schools will always survive for the purposes of creating silk purses out of silver spoon sows ears.

I feel disinclined to believe you. In ye olden days (20 years ago say) everybody had to be got to university somehow so they could genuinely say they were offered the job at Sotheby's or on the glossy mag purely on merit and not through Mummy's oldest friend. But now there no jobs for mere graduates anyway I can't see such a pressing need for smart but un-academic offspring to be pushed along that road. Why not just let them enjoy the local posh comp and keep the money to help their business start-up costs? I'm speculating - but I genuinely think that's how the prep school parents I know would see things. If little Johnny wasn't shaping up to be a brain on legs they would find a different use for their money. So I don't hold out much hope for St Takes Anyone ...

Zero
I got insulted on another thread for saying that C grade students should be happy with C grade jobs rather than Mummy paying for tutoring up to an artificial A grade

The naice people that certain auction / meejah employers want will always find ways through the system even if their grades would not get them into any normal course

But actually the St Cakes type schools are still not expensive compared with the selective ones.

Talkin do you have evidence that the IB/Pre U are of the radar of most universities?
As far as Im aware the IB is an internationally respected and recognised qualification significantly better in many cases than A levels. As you probably know Win Coll only offers the Pre U and it would appear universities happily accept it too its also happily accepted by universities outside if the UK; those in Europe and North America.
When you say "it will all be shelved come May" I take it you're talking about the election what changes do you fore see to exams; IGCSE, GCSE, A levels, Pre U and IB post election? That latter two are completely independent of government interference control as I believe are IGCSE's.