Very Pushy Parents

[pinklink]

My other half is a teacher, a good one too. He is always marking planning and works late doing after school additional lessons. Since leaving the local comprehensive he joined a private school in September. He has been told on a few occasions by parents that they "pay his salary". His view is that he would rather go back to the comp and deal with difficult children who can change, but are initially the way they are due to challenging home environments. He said nothing can be done to solve the problem of difficult parents. He has had parents scream at him because their dc was moved down one set. His words were "they do more damage by pushing us constantly, it's tiring, degrading and when that happens I feel worthless. I struggle to put together a decent lesson after things like this happen."

He also felt that parents in the comp respected teachers but in the private school they see it as customer service where they buy the product.

I have a dd who I put through a private school, I let the school make the decisions with what group she would be in, I never interfered.

I struggle to empathasise with those, who I am sure are on here too, think they know their child's ability in the subject better than the professionals.

My other half is now thinking of resigning, but feels guilty knowing the school as do many other schools, struggle to find maths teachers.

Leave the teachers alone folks. Let them do what they need to.

But those who claim they are seeking a 'social mix' by going to a poorly performing school are also seeking a specific peer group for their DC to patronise.
But note, they seek that peer group for their DC, not for themselves, rather hypocritically unless they also choose to live and work in a deprived area eg in cramped conditions in a high-rise flat in order to properly attain that 'social mix' ...

"I've never really understood this contacts thing."

"I buy a peer group I suppose"

That is precisely what is meant by buying contacts. Nothing to do with selection procedures a particular post. But a life-long endogamous network.

Who says they are seeking a peer group?

The last thing when I look at schools is peer group.

Yy Edith

An example of one of the worst parents I had:
Their child went home telling lies on how well they did in the test. They also claimed they were doing much better than other children in that class. Parents wrote in to say their child should be moved up a set. When I told the parents that their child was in the middle of the class re test and also was struggling on the most recent topic in class, they then told me it was my fault, I was a bad teacher, because of that their DC should be moved up.
My boss told them it was not fair for their DC to move sets without performing at the top of the class in the tests. They then told him they want daily feedback from him regarding their child. My boss told them that it would be pointless as he did not teach the child and also it is unfair to other parents. The mother screamed at him, that he would not be there without their money and that she was a consumer. Boss terminated the meeting to which the mother through the note pad she had at him. They then told both of us we would lose our jobs.
After this meeting I was so shaken that I was making lots of mistakes in my next lesson. The students even asked me what was going on. I struggled to sleep for a week.
Fortunately management supported us and told them to accept or go elsewhere if they didn't like it. You could imagine my anguish when parents evening came round. I taught him for another two years after, good child but continued to lie about his performance at home. I was so relieved when he finally left the school.
You see, those parents although are rare, they do rear their ugly heads moreso in the private schools and it does impact you so much more as it is all about the grades, rather than learning!

Also in my experience some rich parents, who are rich due to their hard work and successes expect their DC to be exactly the same. When it's not like that they cannot understand it and blame the teaching/school.

I have also met difficult parents in the state sector but they are not half as likely to exist or as pushy as the OP has said, as the private schools

Lots of entrenched views on here. We send DS to the school we feel is the best fit for him - that happens to be the highly selective independent which a)he was sufficiently able to get into and b) we can afford the fees so we are fortunate. We're not paying for contacts, future jobs etc. I'm sure there are some awful parents expecting little Jonny to be better than he is - but that doesn't mean ALL parents are like this!

and peer group....surely every parent wants their DC to form a good group of friends who all want to make the most of school and join in - that's a peer group IMO. It's all about the grades rather than learning......everyone wants their children to get good grades (that's the only record they have once they've left school) AND ideally a positive learning experience. A positive learning experience without resulting in decent results is wooly nonsense IMO!

Top grades, but then completely forgetting what has been learned after a few months is nonsense I'm afraid. Learning comes first.

I have to admit that if I was paying fees of up to 12k to 15k a year I would be a pushy parent.
One has to remember that not all parents who send their dcs to private school are wealthy, many have to make sacrifices . This means that they will be expecting more for their dcs; including better grades than their state school counterparts.
I live in Kent which has grammar schools. I know many parents who put their dcs in prep schools in order to boost their dcs chances of getting into a grammar school . Many believe that it is job of the school to get their dc into a grammar and therefore feel that they are within their rights to be 'pushy ',as they are paying for a service.
My next door neighbour 's dd 'failed ' the 11 plus despite attending a private prep school. My neighbour is furious as she believes that it was the school 's duty to ensure that her dc passed .Her anger is further compounded by the fact that my dc attends the local school and passed the exam .
Btw, I think that it is ridiculous to suggest that the teachers are better in any sector. My best teachers at school were from both ex- polys and what is now known as Russell Group unis.

I pay fees and have never pushed a school nor a child for that matter although I do think market forces in the private sector is one reaosn private schools do better.

however we always come to the conclusion on these threads that most mothers on mumsnet who earn enough to pay private school fees and those who choose not to use private schools are happy with their choices so there's no problem. It is however true that there are fewer teacher changes, fewer supply teachers and teachers with a degree in their subject and many who are better at teaching in the private sector in the better private schools and also that is in part because the teachers can get a better deal - free housing, free school places, nicer architecture etc etc

However 94% of children go to state schools and plenty of those do fine.

notweeting if it suits you to believe that all children in independent schools are only of average intelligence, only get fantastic grades because their spoon fed and that's the only reason why they achieve entrance into the top universities that's fine. Fortunately some of us know this is not true
Like it not five or six independent schools consistently get better A level results/send more to Oxbridge than any other school one of course remains consistently the UK's top school, no state school gets results like these. What are you saying that not only are these schools able to convince parents that their teaching etc is not only 1st class when it's distinctly mediocre they can also pull the wool over the eyes those in charge of admissions including admissions into the notoriously competitive Ivy League? The teachers at these schools must be far from 2nd rate to achieve this they must be bloody miracle workers.

If you google 'teachers attacked by parents' you'll come up with all sorts of reports and surveys in the media giving examples of teachers being abused by parents in the state sector; kicked, punched, bitten, spat at, having chairs thrown at them, being sworn at and almost deliberately run over. In one survey sent to head teachers in 2011, over 100 head teachers (out of 1,362 who responded) said they had been physically assaulted by parents. A few 'pushy' parents in the private sector seems quite mild by comparison.

Notweeting - are you saying that the learning experience is generally better in the State sector. DN who is likely to get a string of A* ( and he will have earned those)is bored in English (memorise essays to repeat in exams) and was advised to pretty much to self teach in science. They do not do any practical work in science - GCSE years. Subject he enjoys - Maths because he has additional G & T lessons. He will have really earned his results and I know my DS wouldn't be so diligent in such an environment (not a good thing just reality). This is just one state school so not representative but...a) doesn't paint an 'all is rosy in State schools' and b) shows we will all have examples of good and bad in both sectors.
I'm glad you're teaching somewhere you are now happier.

Green grow - absolutely you're right 94% of children go to State school, lots doing very well. I like to point that out to some of the daft parents at private schools who think that children will come out of the State sector just about being able to read! Ridiculous !

Green grow- fewer/no supply teachers, yes. But just as many absences! What do you think private schools do in absences? They use staff from other subjects to sit in on the cover lesson. There is NO teaching going on if a teacher is absent. State schools use supply teachers as they have a one cover a week rule, it allows teachers to get on with the planning and marking. Private schools merely give the illusion of "no supply" and further burden staff and take them away from the all important planning.
You do not know the details of what goes on unless you have been a teacher in both sectors. As parents looking in, that is exactly what you do, you see what is going on in general but no idea of the details.

Anyway, I'm signing off, I don't want parents going in hassling colleagues teaching in the private sector because I have just shed some light on what goes on.
Both have benefits, if you have an average ability child send them private to get good grades on paper. If you have a clever child, send them state so that they are given the opportunities to learn discover, explore and deepen understanding rather than the focus be entirely on answering exam questions. If you can go grammar.

Green grow- there is no such thing as free school places for staff children, reduced fees yes, but on our salaries we still can't afford it.
No free housing either, you pay rent, if it's a boarding school then you do duties in return for reduced housing costs.
Better architecture- i will give you that but then children do not give two hoots about that.
The only main perk in private is the longer breaks which compensates the much longer days. There is also less career progression as there is less structuring in management.
It is also easy for teachers to move from state to private but very difficult to go back. Private school teachers have the stigma of teaching chalk and talk style with little creativity. The state sector is also light years ahead in terms of technology- which is odd given that there is more money floating about in the private sector.

It is depressing to see 'top' set DC in state schools, and their parents, smugly assuming exam grades are all that matters.

Even by your standards, Ms Herodotus, that's a particularly snide and unpleasant comment.

Happy gardening- Having had a lot of communication with likes of Oxford and Cambridge admissions they are fully aware that the private school children have in their words, not mine, "inflated grades", due to exam coaching. They try to spot them at interviews but it is becoming difficult as these children are coached for interviews too. Top universities offer lower grades when sending out their offers to the state school children, it is a well known fact and it is a practice which is increasingly quickly ever year!

As a teacher - in both sectors - permanent and now supply, and a parent with DC now in indie (were in state primaries till Y5) I do find your conclusions rather naïve, nottweeting.
The great thing is that in indie there is an enormous choice, form the naice central London trad girls' schools for the training of laydees, to the super selectives.
I am happy with the choice we made for our DC - if they had been less academic, we would still have opted indie, but a different school.
The school we have chosen encourages them to read around their subjects, the DC take a max of 11 GCSE, all taken at the end of Y11, so the pressure is not on getting lots of extra tick in boxes, but on enjoying the learning, and having a wider experience than just exam preparation.
And in the last two years, our DC have between them been on cultural, language and sporting trips to US (two different trips), Spain, France, Canada, South Africa, Scotland, Italy and Myanmar.
If they had gone to the nearest state super selective (they gained places - we declined, so freeing them up for others to take up) they would have come out with 14 A* GCSEs, but would have done nothing but cram. Not our choice for them.

Also very naïve about university applications.
They are based on DC who will work hard and achieve top degrees.
There is no bias in favour of either sector, and never has been.

notw, because of the case of Pepper v Hart the minimum fee charged is 15% of the fees but that is virtually free. That is what we paid for our son. My husband had a colleague whose 3 children from 3 - 13 paid that 15% (i.e. very little) and at 13+ they all moved to the leading school their father taught at and they all had free housing all those years too due to the parents' jobs - great perk if you teach in some private schools. Other private schools do not offer teachers' children much off the fees. We also could go up at weekends ot the massive grounds and basically had a free outdoor swimming pool to ourselves. It is where my son learned to swim - quite lovely.

As most women do not earn enough to pay fees I am more than happy if they want to think the teaching is as good in state as private schools but I don't think on the whole that it is. However I have no axe to grind. I am now in year 26 or something of continuously paying school fees and am more than happy the money goes on that. it has been a really good use for the money but as I say above most children go to state schools and there are plenty of good state grammars, posh comps and all kinds of other state schools that suit many so everyone can go for what they prefer.

Then universities have always tried to look at context - if everyone getsd CCC in a sate school and one pupil gets AAA that is going to be rightly regarded as very good compared to AAA from Henrietta barnet State school or an academic private. No one has any problems with that and children from the academic private schools mostly do well because the schools are good, the parents supporting, the children are bright and the children work very hard indeed. Outcomes for private pupils in terms of life, earnings and careers are pretty good too. I think it is the best investment you can make for a child.