Very Pushy Parents

[pinklink]

My other half is a teacher, a good one too. He is always marking planning and works late doing after school additional lessons. Since leaving the local comprehensive he joined a private school in September. He has been told on a few occasions by parents that they "pay his salary". His view is that he would rather go back to the comp and deal with difficult children who can change, but are initially the way they are due to challenging home environments. He said nothing can be done to solve the problem of difficult parents. He has had parents scream at him because their dc was moved down one set. His words were "they do more damage by pushing us constantly, it's tiring, degrading and when that happens I feel worthless. I struggle to put together a decent lesson after things like this happen."

He also felt that parents in the comp respected teachers but in the private school they see it as customer service where they buy the product.

I have a dd who I put through a private school, I let the school make the decisions with what group she would be in, I never interfered.

I struggle to empathasise with those, who I am sure are on here too, think they know their child's ability in the subject better than the professionals.

My other half is now thinking of resigning, but feels guilty knowing the school as do many other schools, struggle to find maths teachers.

Leave the teachers alone folks. Let them do what they need to.

I am stating the facts of what has been happening, like I said, the vast majority of the parents were fine, but there are a minority who take up a lot of time, constant meetings, constant feedback and reporting, long phone calls. This minority is much bigger in size than the state sector. Wether you like it or not, there are parents who get their way at private schools even if it is wrong.
I can see on here that those of you with DC at private schools are uncomfortable reading this, I was worried too because my DD is it a private school. But my DD confirms this is what goes on at her school too, a girl in her class got moved up a set when she did not even have the highest mark in a test they did. She goes to a different private school btw.
I cannot move my DD to a state school as she had formed friendships, but she won't be staying there at sixth form.
The more expensive things are not necessarily the best.

www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/state-pupils-on-same-grades-as-private-counterparts-get-better-degrees/2012325.article

wake up folks

Greater accountability to parents at private schools=more teaching to the exams.
It does not mean it is better teaching, this article is based on a research involving 300,000 students:
www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/state-pupils-on-same-grades-as-private-counterparts-get-better-degrees/2012325.article

how many schools, state or independent, do you have personal experience of? Because you are making sweeping statements and resenting them as your experience, when it sounds like your experience is very limited. And digging up articles to support your 'theory' doesn't make it any more fact. Your DH is having a bad experience of a tiny minority (how did you get the 96/4% figure, out of interest?) of parents at one school. It's horrible for him, but you can't extrapolate that to say you only get this in indies.

resenting = representing

Your husband obviously prefers the private sector as he has taken its filthy lucre and you are entitled to be against his choices if you wish but plenty of mothers on mumsnet pay fees and we are happy with our choices too.

It is without doubt a huge benefit to children to be in the better private schools. Most of the research proves that that is the case but the 94% of parents who do not earn enough to pay fees or who choose not to pay may well also be content with their choices so that's great too. I feel it's one of the best investments I have made in my 5 children in paying fees from age 3 - 18 and beyond and that may parents did in me but if you don't want to pay don't. It's luckily a free country. i would say one reason private schools is better is because state provision of most things is useless and the free market means that you put better pressure on schools and teachers to get better results. It is that direct accountability to parents which makes the education better amongst other things and the lack of it in the state sector which makes it hard to sack teachers who are not very good and harder for parents to effect change in a school. Well done private sector as ever. It rules both literally and otherwise.

I've name changed. DH is a HoD of maths at an independent school. He takes the flack for setting and most years there will be some persistent parents who cannot accept that their child is not in the top set and it does create great amounts of work - hour long phone calls, relays of emails, meetings. Ultimately, when all the evidence is there that says the pupil has been placed in the correct set, he is able to pass it on to more senior management. With each complaint, he found it hard not to come home feeling deflated. He took it very personally and I have had to remind him not to do that. Each year fewer and fewer parents have complained so there could be an element of parents trying it on with new teachers, or trusting their judgement less. Over the years he has earnt a good reputation and tried not to let the minority of rude, entitled parents tarnish his experience with the majority of the parents who are supportive and respectful.

Some of that minority have threatened to take their grievance to the governors but usually find they do not have a valid complaint. Is your DH's senior management team not supportive?

Much to the disappointment of many mums on here, I am with pink on this. I have worked in 4 different private schools over 16 years. This was the theme in all of them. I decided that I too had enough of the battles and now teach at a sixth form college.

Sorry to say it, but the issues are there in private schools. The research is also well known and well research does not lie. Teachers I have worked with tell you the same.

There are of course benefits to private schooling, the wealth of extra activities on offer, the state sector cannot compete with that.

DH is the second in charge in maths. He is returning to the same position in his previous state school.
He has only been in the private school since September, so nothing has gone to governors or anything of that sort. His management is supportive but will say that certain parents that he will not get anywhere. His Head of Department is equally struggling. It is this what frustrates him, because having done the same job before he has not come across such a large number of incidences like this before.

At the interview for the job at the p school he was asked "How would you respond to a parent who disagrees with the set their son is in?"

Anyway, he is happy now that he is out of there. Didn't want to upset folks on here, just saying what has been going on.

It sounds like everyone is happy - [private school parents glad market forces work and the teacher unhappy in a state school has moved back. That is win win.

On setting most parents accept the set but the general principle that parents might have some power is big reason private schools are better. It is market forces and keeps people in check and works very well. Mind you I remember a setting question at parents' evening a couple of years ago - my child very keen to stay in his low set so we have in reverse here although his teacher was more than happy to keep him too. Often it is the relationship with the teacher which makes teenagers work well rather than a precise set in my view. My daughter was in the 5th of 5 sets at Haberdashers and still got an A for maths GCSE and recently had her pay rise as a lawyer in her 20s to £104k. I am not saying she is doing well because I chose a job which enabled me to pay school fees but I don't think it's damaged her.

Pink - glad to hear your DH is moving if he wasn't happy. I've got 3DC in the private sector ( but we've used state too). We're very happy with the quality of the education that they are getting. We're very low maintenance parents - but I can't disagree there are batty parents (the prep school seemed to have more but that might be because it's more obvious at prep). Not all private schools are the same, I don't recognise the 'spoon feeding' comments but it probably depends on the school.

On your point re students doing less well at Uni for the same grades. My interpretation would be that the school has succeeded in allowing them to get the best grades that they are capable of. A private school can't change the basic ability of a pupil (however much parents would like it if they did) and there are plenty of the not so bright as well as the most able in both sectors.

And not all parents are pushing for children to be in the top sets. Mine are for one subject but one is for another but it really does not bother me. Also if they get a teacher who is pretty awful or does not like them as every child gets over their school career that is just part of life - you put up with it and it's a great lesson in how to deal with awful people.

Parents complain about setting in all sectors. I am a teacher who has seen this endlessly at parents' evenings in both sectors. Teachers need to have backbone dealing with parents - sadly a lot roll over.
Regarding qualified teachers - yes state schools have to employ them.
However, their get-out clause is that they do not have to be qualified in the subject they are teaching - hence why state schools happily rebook me, as a qualified teacher, to supply in subjects that are not my specialism, because I still tick the 'qualified' box.
I also supply in local independent school, but only in my specialism, because although in theory they are free to use unqualified teachers, and probably often do - they insist that the teacher is a specialist in the subject - the state schools don't because they don't need to.
This week I have been in highly regarded local Outer-London state comp (probably one in which MNetters DC are educated - they will never know how often the class is covered by supply), and have taught the same class several times in widely differing subjects. On Friday they expressed astonishment that I was a teacher qualified in so many subjects. Of course, I'm not.
And for those that smugly say their school does no use supply teachers - what do you think happens when a teacher has a medial appt, house-move, offsite trip or event? Do you think there is an abundance of maths or science teachers employed by the school specifically to cover those?

pinklink - your OH's story is sad but true, unfortunately. And it's a wounding experience.

Often the only thing that parents like this can do is bellow at the teacher: they don't know how to support their child in any other way. OH has presumably explained that difficulty in one tricky topic area may be followed by easy assimilation of the next?

Your OH needs some support from his HoD - perhaps a phone call to complaining parents explaining school's setting policy, how frequently it is reviewed, etc. Is such support forthcoming?

(No doubt HoD could mention the remedial help sessions that are put on at lunchtime or after school to help support pupils with difficulties in particular areas.)

I don't think my DS2 school use supply teachers, other staff are expected to cover but then as all teaching staff live on site perhaps it easier.
I'm frankly unconvinced by this qualified teacher thing. Over the years I've met some amazing teachers who aren't qualified teachers and some frankly mediocre ones who are. I look for genuine passion and knowledge for your subject and an ability to impart this passion and knowledge to others. I'm unconvinced that any PGCSE can create any of those things on it's own. It has to be within in you in the first place.

Can we stop with the sweeping generalisations about entire sectors that some posters seem so fond of? It's so unhelpful.

pinklink The only people I know teaching Maths/Sciences at private schools (yes, including the big private schools) have a PhD in the subject they teach in, but do not have teaching qualifications. These people would not have chosen to teach in state schools because they would have had to obtain yet another "qualification". Given they taught undergraduates for 4 years during their PhD, and are a LOT more enthusiastic about the subject than many that have a mere BA, I'd say they're quite qualified to teach.

Amber there are lots of sweeping generalisation about both sectors around at the moment. There are good and bad teachers in both and pushy demanding pain in the arse parents in both.
Though having said this when people pay significant sums of money their expectations of staff are inevitably going to be vey high and some people without a doubt think money entitles you to throw your weight around. A friend who's DH is on the ST rich list once said "no ones ever said no to X!"

happygardening completely agree - the PGCE/QTS is just a 'ticket' you need to get if you want to teach in a state school. Certainly at my DC school (indie) there are inspirational teachers without the 'ticket' - it is completely unnecessary.
Interestingly the HMC is intending to start their own accreditation system, which will be school based as they do not feel that PGCE?QTS is a useful qualification.

We all know the better privat schools have better teachers and more qualified teachers which is why the children get such stellar results. Socialists can keep their children in state schools if they wish but they are not doing their children any favours thereby.

I became one of 'those' parents about sets recently (but I didn't shout at any teachers!) because a new teacher decided due to a timetabling problem that my ds had to gp down a set, nothing to do with ability and the teachers answer was to throw random worksheets in ds direction. Having experienced both state and private, my personal viewpoint of teachers I've met there is that the private school ones are less likely to be flexible and accept behaviour from some parents purely on the basis of their status. But, it also sounds like OP DH has found a particularly poor school, because all my meetings were with the headmaster not the class teacher.

It seems we can't stop the sweeping generalisations then, Greengrow. Shame. I think these discussions would be much more interesting if we could.

There have been a good few earlier threads on mumsnet where we have posted links to the degrees etc which private school teachers in the good academic selective top schools have cmopared with local state comps in the same areas and usually the good privates demand higher degrees, better universities/Oxbridge and a degree in the relevant subject whilst the state school parents seem to think those schools are staffed by teachers with no qualifications at all. Anyway we are each delighted with our own sector except the poster's husband who has tried his foray into the private sector who has gone back to state so everyone is happy. All is rosy in our respective gardens.

I still think parent power and accountability to fee paying parents is one major reason private schools are better than state. That does not mean teachers kow tow to parents who think their precious little darling who is as thick as a plank in state or private sector ought to be in a top set.