Very Pushy Parents

[pinklink]

My other half is a teacher, a good one too. He is always marking planning and works late doing after school additional lessons. Since leaving the local comprehensive he joined a private school in September. He has been told on a few occasions by parents that they "pay his salary". His view is that he would rather go back to the comp and deal with difficult children who can change, but are initially the way they are due to challenging home environments. He said nothing can be done to solve the problem of difficult parents. He has had parents scream at him because their dc was moved down one set. His words were "they do more damage by pushing us constantly, it's tiring, degrading and when that happens I feel worthless. I struggle to put together a decent lesson after things like this happen."

He also felt that parents in the comp respected teachers but in the private school they see it as customer service where they buy the product.

I have a dd who I put through a private school, I let the school make the decisions with what group she would be in, I never interfered.

I struggle to empathasise with those, who I am sure are on here too, think they know their child's ability in the subject better than the professionals.

My other half is now thinking of resigning, but feels guilty knowing the school as do many other schools, struggle to find maths teachers.

Leave the teachers alone folks. Let them do what they need to.

I have taught in several different schools: private boarding, private day, big old style comp and now small, rural comp. Teachers in all of them have been brilliant, quite good or, often shit. Some of the shit ones had Doctorates but treated even the cleverest pupils like nuisances. Some of the shit ones were stupid themselves. Some of the brilliant ones have quite mediocre qualifications.

Parents too come in all shapes and sizes. I am a pushy parent when I find my child being left untaught, belittled and ignored. I am pushy when I think their needs are not being met. I am bloody lovely when they are happy and learning.

I suspect I am more impatient about teachers than most because I am one and I do OK at it, therefore don't suffer fools.

All of which shows nothing more than parents, teachers, schools, pupils can all be good, amazing, shit, you can't generalise. I have taught pupils whose parents are loaded and couldn't care a tiny bit about them, who never turn up and show no interest. And I have taught pupils whose parents are poor and uneducated themselves and want a different outcome for their children and are prepared to push for it.

OP. You are talking about one school. Management sound less than supportive. However, please don't generalise as you make yourself look foolish. Your DH was unhappy. He left. Good for him.

Roseforme you are completely right about the trap of lazy generalisations. However I think there is a difference between the 'pushiness' that you describe (which I would just call a supportive parent intervening for their DC) and the 'pushiness' which either lacks perspective of what is best for a DC or is mainly about the perceived status of the DC whether academic or sport or whatever or getting them an advantage above the others.
Poor management coupled with occasional poor decision making by teachers plus the perceived rights of a paying customer creates a culture that justifies such pushiness and leads to other parents feeling their DCs are at a disadvantage because they themselves have n't been pushy.
I have observed that in some of our local private schools. It does n't seem to become a problem in schools with strong management and excellent teachers that are respected and parents trust to know what is best for their DC.

" We all know the better private schools have the better teachers" do we?

Teachers all get trained in the same places.Where I was trained the students with less confident class management veered towards the private sector because they thought it would be easier and it is.I know some shocking teachers who ended up at very well respected boarding schools.

I have friends now who teach in both sectors.Those in the private sector acknowledge how much harder the state sector is and a couple have said they could never swop over as they'd never meet the high standards required by Ofsted.

Sorry but teaching in schools with teeny classes and good contacts,zero poverty,amazing resources,zero social problems,zero underfunded learning difficulties,zero hungry children,the best buildings etc is why some private schools do well not because of some elite teaching force.

Some of the best teachers I have ever seen and would love my dc to be taught by teach in the worse schools.

That is the complete opposite to the Op tho' - her DH could not cope in the private sector, moved back to state where it was easier.
And it is a lazy misconception to confuse 'classroom management' with teaching. Some people are good at crowd control, they are not necessarily good teachers. Some less good teachers spend their time on 'classroom management' and making every excuse under the sun for the poor performance of the cohort they 'teach' to avoid have to actually teach.

You need to be good at both.Fat lot of good it is to students if they can't learn due to poorly behaved classes.Making lessons interesting and engaging children is part of it.

Teachers who can pull off a good lesson with good class management in a tough area are admirable imvho. There are hoards doing just that and more on a daily basis in the state sector even with every disadvantage thrown at them instead of every advantage.

My observation is, and difficult to be sure as schools don't advertise it, is that there are quite a lot of teachers within the Private Sector who are not formally qualified. This is particularly the case with maths and science where there seems to be a real shortage whichever sector. Some are very good and bring additional experience: industry, finance etc, to the table. One or two, who are clearly brilliant, have struggled in the classroom. They tend not to last long.

My observation is also that pushy parents clearly exist. Its not just the English. American colleges will want to know all sorts of Grade Point Averages and where the child sits within the year group, which then puts continuous pressure on pupils and parents to remain at the top. They are not the only ones. In my experience Asian, Russian and other parents can have high expectations for their children, which may well flow over to pressure on teachers.

It can be a bore. The pressures of US University entry can lead to an impression that key student sport and EC positions can go to certain students, simply because they need them more. At one point, DD was moved down a maths set when others, who she felt were less able, stayed up. It worked out fine in the end. The teacher in the set below got fed up of her finishing class work well ahead of the others so moved her up again. She then discovered that some really struggled in class, though did OK in exams. The assumption being that quite a lot of back up tutoring was going on. Fine in that they got the grades but tedious for fellow students and the teacher.

I would not expect this problem to be limited to private schools, though can agree that some parents seem to think that they can buy most things. (And indeed some are rich enough to be able to buy most things!) I once met a Tiffin father who seemed outraged that Tiffin did not provide all the bells and whistles he had expected. The issues and the extent to which some parents are able to influence a school seems to vary from school to school.

Good schools will have a policy on gifts to teachers from parents (we know a prep school sports coach who received a gift worth more than £1000, together with receipt so he could get a refund. What does he do then. Drop the child from the team?) Good ones will be careful about the role of any PTA, and the links between fundraising initiatives and bodies set up to enable parental consultation. Good ones might have a single point of parental contact: housemaster, tutor, form teacher etc, and not allow parents to lobby individual teachers directly. Good ones will have a clear approach to setting which does not leave tutored kids wasting class time whilst they struggle to understand new concepts. Good ones will have an effective Senior Management Team who are aware of potential problems and step in quickly when they occur. (I remember one parent who was shocked when a Head said she could withdraw her children without paying a terms fees in lieu of notice. He was standing by his teacher.)

My assumption is that the pushy parent thing has crept up on some schools. I don't think it is going to go away, but oddly I think private schools are often better able to cope.

I think some of you are going off track. The OP has not mentioned anything about being able to teach between the two sectors. It is about the parents.
I have worked in 4 different private schools and now I am in a state sixth form. Speak to any of my colleagues who have worked in both sectors and they will agree with the OP. Like it or not it's true. Where there is money involved naturally there are more demands. And such demands affect outcomes.
I have met horrible parents in both sectors but there are FAR more of them in the independent. Parents are less likely to trust a teachers judgement in the private sector and some of your comments confirm that. You are making teaching statements when you don't even know the teaching side of things! Have you ever spoken to teachers about the problems they face? You may not be one if these crazy parents but let me tell you, a lot more of them exist in private schools than state.
Pink- I hope you show DH these posts, it will confirm he made the right decision.
And by the way the worst teacher I met had a PhD in their field and may come as a bit of surprise to you but crowd control exists in private schools too!

Just to add perks to private:
Better coaching for Oxford entry as it is non existent in state, more on offer with musical instruments, more activities and sports, better facilities, smaller classes, most are selective schools so that's why there are better results.
The teaching is exactly the same. That is why trying to get more from them is pointless.

I apologise for going on, but there was an element of teaching to the exam in two of the independent schools I was at, they were also the two most academic. Students were not capable of the high grades expected of them unless teachers pretty much coached them to answer "exam style". That is why the research carried out by Dept of Educ in conjunction with Cardiff Uni says what it does about outcomes at university.
Pastoral care is always of the highest importance in private schools. Like I said there are perks.

I've heard this from a teacher who taught at an inner city comp then a private school. Apparently there are lots of very average children in private schools who's parents think having money will make them brighter than they really are.

And one more, my last I promise.... The best place is a state grammar, it has the perks of both sectors. I did some of my training in one, and PINK the parents although pushy, they accept the fact that there are children better than their little darling, hence they cannot create the teach to the exam nonsense.

It depends on the school. In top 20 academic private schools the children are bright and 4 in 5 applicants are not bright enough to get in. They and state grammars are very different from your run of the mill comprehensive private school and ordinary comprehensive private school.

Some schools do not give if someone has PGCE or not but certainly my children's father who has worked in private schools for 30 years has never been a private school which did not have just about all teachers with PCGEs even going back 20 years. Sate parents might like to con themselves that teachers are amateurs who are not much use in private schools and children only do well because of money but that is simply not so. Look at the degrees etc and where they were obtained from say Haberdashers boys - it all looks fine to me:

habsboys.org.uk/info/govstaff1112.php

DuelingFanjo- yes! Finally someone who has spoken to a teacher.

I despair of the obsession on MN with how 'bright' children are. Those DC are in for a rude shock from their complacency after being in the 'top' sets and constantly told they are 'bright - as if that is all that matters.
One of the reason we chose a selective indie for ouf DC is that they were constantly told at their state primary that they were 'bright' - we did not want that to follow them all through school - bright' -ness is irrelevant - it is how diligently they work that makes a difference in the real world. They are now at an indie where every child is 'bright' and they could easily get A* s without any effort, but the teaching and ethos is that they work hard to achieve the best they can - they do not just coast along because they are 'bright'. It is depressing to see 'top' set DC in state schools, and their parents, smugly assuming exam grades are all that matters.

lol at DF 'talking to a teacher'.
I am a teacher and talk to teachers every day

Greengrow-
The degree/university has no bearing on if a teacher can teach. I have worked 16 years and those who have not had a teaching qualification have struggled to teach in their first few years. They do not know the pitfalls, they do not know what works what doesn't. They do not know what to pre-empt. They in effect train on the job which means those first few years is an experiment. I have mentored numerous such staff and it's the same problems.
Just because you have a degree from a top university does not mean you can teach.

But you lot go ahead and keep throwing thousands of pounds if you want those enhanced grades that do not reflect capability.
Well done to universities for lowering entry grades to state school children, about time they smelt what's been cooking

But many of us not paying for enhanced grades- we are paying for a school which stretches and inspires our children.
If you are happy with your state school - where's the problem?
If you are not happy, campaign for better standards in state schools.

We're not saying teachers in the private sector are better,others are.

I refuse to let a comment like that go unchallenged.

Notweeting - but those children will always have those grades and if that means they are higher grades than they would have got elsewhere I'm sure many parents will see that as money well spent. Nobody is saying that private school makes a child more intelligent.....

There's an awful lot of teaching to the test I hear about in the state sector too - whether that's to push children to a grade C or at the top end. My DN (likely to get A* in a very average comp) is bored stiff in English because all they do is write practice papers and learn by rote for the exam.

We're lucky enough that the experience, certainly at the moment for my DS is teaching that stretches and inspires. He's not a child that responds well to 'being taught to the test'.

There's good and bad teachers in both sectors, I'm sure there are some horrific parents in both but probably for different reasons.

And sorry many do use the private sector for enhanced grades hence the agro the op's husband has experienced.I for one have friends who use the private sector for that very reason,at least they're honest about why they're paying crippling fees.

And re state parents smugly assuming grades matter.They do matter particularly for state kids battling against the contacts those in the private sector enjoy. State kids have to work hard and then some.

I've never really understood this contacts thing. In every job application my children have done contacts are irrelevant. They are big companies and they have graduate admissions programmes which are about on line applications, UCAS points, maths tests on line and all the rest. Most private school pupils who graduate go through those systems rather than some kind of back door entrance method.

On which sector has better teachers we will have to agree to disagree. I think if a teacher was bright enough to get into one of th best universities they probably have more in common with what I want for my children across a range of things than if they went to an ex poly and got pretty dire A level grades although I expect they will be good at teaching their subject to (and if they aren't they get sacked very quickly in private schools).

However I never felt I was buying A level grades at private schools. I buy a peer group I suppose. I ensure the children are educated only with those of their sex and only with those with a high IQ and high life expectations. Teenagers are hugely influenced by those around them.

Aren't they just.I suspect your dc will have the same delightful views on life and other people as you.Not something I want for my kids thank.