Why do some parents think private school at primary is a waste of money.... but are secretly saving for secondary?

[Tallandgracefulmum]

AIBU as my little one is starting prep school in Sept. I was asked by a friend at DD's nursery my plans, said private all the way and was told I would be wasting my money and should save it for secondary when it matters.

I hate this ..most parents I know would send kids private all the way through but cannot afford it so are saving for secondary. But to be honets if your not used to paying shed loads monthly for schooling, you will not suddently 7 years later ( and higher fees) start doing it for secondary.

What some people don't seem to get is that some parents value educational experience over material possessions or fancy homes. This friend in question said she will use the money she saves to provide education experiences for her children and give them a lump sum for uni.

My thoughts are she just can't afford it and wants to make me feel bad for spending my hard earned money.

How many parents actually compare a range of private school fees, then calculate how much it would cost to send one child then save the relevant monthly amount ready to give each off spring at 18? Doesn't happen. What's wrong in providing the best educational experience you can afford for your kids without others constantly telling me I am wasting my money.

FWIW I can understand private school bashers who hate all forms of private schooling, but not those who bash primary but would send kids to secondary in a heartbeat!

Tuppen

You mentioned:
As far as I can see the average prep schools are churning out kids with no better quals than their state counterparts... this is very true, but why do those schools still exist, because some parents maybe after more than just qualifications.
I choose DD1 school, even though my borough is blessed with having numerous outstanding and good schools due to the ethos of the school, the co-curriculum on offer, open house policy, number of children in a class, wanted to know where she was going year in advance, loved the head, loved the head of the infants, ethnic diversity of current pupils, option to take her out of school for a or two to do family travelling or take work postings abroad and still keep the school place on return, fantastic facilities should DD be interested in learning various sports, brilliant art studio (DD takes after sis) and is that way inclined for now, after school care options on same site and senior school destinations. Nothing to do with the KS1 results. The local state schools are outstanding but each did not have all of the above combined which is what I wanted.

We are not buying into the elite.

Well saintly you may not know anyone with children at these crammers but I did when we lived in another county with only grammars and non grammars. Frankly I was stunned at how pushy these preps are, with parents fretting that their 6 year old wouldn't pass the grammar school entrance exam, tutoring 6/7 year olds so that they would be identified as "grammar school material" in yr 3 and thus given work of the correct level and the tutoring extensively through yr 5/6. Where we lived there were loads of these preps, some parents scrimped and saved to pay the fees, because they believed that the non grammars were so awful and most couldn't afford secondary school fees which were significantly higher. Many of the wealthier parents jumped ship at yr 3 and moved their DC's to independent through school with a reputation for taking "nice children who can't pass the grammar school test" their words not mine because they felt that their DC's were not coping with the pressure they were under and wanted them to experience a broader education.
These crammers often claim to have a 100% pass rate for the grammar school entrance exam this is how they market themselves to potential parents what they don't say is that they achieve this through natural wastage detailed above and by preventing those who are unlikely to pass the exam from sitting it. They are usually non selective especially in the earlier years. So I come back to what I said in the beginning thankfully I have no direct experience of this type of preps although I had lots of friends with DC's at them. If you want me to put my empathetic hat on I completely understand why parents living in areas with at best mediocre non grammar senior school and who cannot afford independent senior school fees do it, in their situation I might do the same but for me personally this pushy narrow ethos does not fit with my ethos.

As others have said, it depends entirely on the actual schools. We were all set to go for a local private primary but had a couple of concerns about the calibre of some staff while liking the overall ethos/discipline of the school. We then got dd into one of the best (state) primaries in the country from where a fair few do go on to private sec. It was a no-brainer, the state option was clearly the better one.

Well I'm pleased not to live in that county then :shrugs: Mind you the threads for my LA on the 11 plus forum are usually rather sparse (about 3 or 4 per year) so presumably there isn't much of a market for the 11 plus obsessives around here.

Still want to know how the curriculum is delivered differently & what you meant by 'future hopes and plans'

2rebecca, then you made the best choice for your kids.

My kids will still be going on holidays etc, the money is still there for that, I cut my own expenditure to do so.

But I appreciate for some, if they were considering private it may be have been a choice between private school or another child/being a sahp/bigger house/less money for nice things.
Then understandable most families will opt for the state. Yes I know many wealthy familes in states schools. :)

Still no details so I'm thinking it's that elusive je ne sais quoi ie snobbery.

So be need to berate others for not wanting to waste £100k per child on snobbery.

Actually, I'm genuinely interested to know. If my dd is missing out on something, them I'd like to know what that is, but vague assertions about breadth of curriculum tell me nothing. I'd like to hear about the tangible differences - presumably, people know what these are, as that's what they're paying for.

Retropear

Why not say "spend", I hate the term waste. If one earns the money they can spend it how they like, education or not.

Others who chose not to spend taxed income on education, that is their choice.
But for some posters to concede that what they are getting in the state system equals to what many are paying for is just not true, subjective as to if it is better or not, but it is a whole different experience.

So give us details exactly as to why then please both you and happy.

Not interested in things offered after 3.30.I'm a sahm so no need for wrap around care also clubs and activities I can sort for myself elsewhere.

Not interested in spending £100k on a few clubs,music lessons and childcare I can get much cheaper and probably better elsewhere.

Jinsei

You need to do the work if you are interested in knowing if your daughter is missing out on something. Compare the schools you have in mind with your current offering. She may be, she may not, if you are happy with her school offering, then great.

No one on here can enlighten you to that.

OK, Tall, so tell us, what is the difference that you're paying for? Please be specific, as generic statements aren't really telling us anything.

You're in the elite at Eton Winchester etc not bog standard prep/ nice mc independent secondary.
Huge difference IMO

I'm off out now,will await the long £100k worth list with interest.

Different point but when dc were smaller we felt we couldn't afford private although with unlimited cash we would have considered it

As they got older household money increased and with cutbacks we thought that if they were struggling we could afford to send one or maybe two (although I would prefer to send all three)

Ds1 was given the option of private secondary, he didn't want to go backseat he would know nobody and would lose the children he had grown up with

Dd was given the option and refused for the same reason

Ds2 was given the option...guess what!

Sending mine at secondary level didn't work

(But that does mean I can afford cake and lattes )

Tall- what we're getting with our state primary (in top 5 in country not just county) is much better than the local private option! Better qualified teachers, dynamic head, better facilities hence our choice. I'm all for private options but exercise some judgement - opening your cheque book does NOT guarantee a better education. It may, it may not.

You need to do the work if you are interested in knowing if your daughter is missing out on something. Compare the schools you have in mind with your current offering. She may be, she may not, if you are happy with her school offering, then great.

But that's the point. I've done the work, and I see no difference. I looked at all of the schools in my local area, and dd's state school is undoubtedly better than our nearest private. But more broadly speaking, I have spent time in both private and state schools in a professional capacity, and I genuinely don't understand why anyone would pay for private - unless it's for wraparound childcare (longer school days), cramming for 11+ or CE, smaller class sizes or flashier facilities, none of which are particularly important to me.

As far as the actual quality of education is concerned, or the overall ethos and atmosphere, I think it varies enormously according to the school, but from my observations, private schools are generally any better than state.

If I have missed something, I would love to know, but since nobody is able to articulate this, I rather think that I haven't...

That should have said "private schools are not generally any better than state."

Future hopes plans: for exampls if you wish/hope your DS is likely to be ax strong candidate for the KS or election most statistics show that they will need to be at a one of the countries top preps. Ok you can home tutor for it but no state school is going to offer this level of help and why should they?
As you obviously are not able to back up your assertion that primaries offer the same breadths of curriculum as a top prep I will back up mine. My DS2 went to a boarding prep at 7years old from a top primary school the sort of school that parents virtually murdered their neighbours children to get a place for their DC in. The school sent a very high % of children to the local grammars including two super selective grammars the head was very proud of this. It was an exceedingly well resourced school with an enthusiastic PTA being rural it had lots of space.
At prep from yr 2 my DS did five lessons of French a week taught by a French teacher, 4 lessons of Latin again taught by a Latin teachers, history 3 times a week geography twice a week, science for 7 year old was taught in a purpose built lab complete with Bunsen burners etc, the sciences were broken down into bio. chemi, and physics and lessons given weekly in all three again specialist teachers, music was taught twice weekly in another purpose built building by a boring music teacher, ditto (not boring just the music teachers) DT, ditto art. Math was taught by a math geek in the math dept and English by an extraordinary talented English teacher in the English dept, ditto RS there were no sats at his school, by the way, because it is of no relevance to those leaving at 13+. The children did games five times a week including PE, all coaches were specialised sports coaches, so for example cricket was taught three times a week in the summer for 2 1/2 hours by a county cricket player, fencing was taught weekly as an extra curricular activity by an Olympic coach, the school has an excellent record for sports scholarships and success in many many national competitions.
In contrast at the highly sought ofstead primary games/PE was once a week at one stage by a teacher who made me look like Hussain Bolt (I'm three stone over weight) I observed a games lesson once by the time 30 7 yr olds had got changed into their games kit they only had 40 minutes left, the teacher in fairness gave it a go but was no better equipped or knowledgable to teach games than I am. There was a daily literacy and numeracy hour which takes up the whole morning, science (taught) as one subject, geography art DT music history RS were all mainly taught in the afternoon lacking time to teach all of these subjects every week they children would do a whole 1/2 term of history, science etc. French was taught by the class teacher who admitted she knew only the most rudimentary of a French with help from the counties French teaching expert, one after school club was offered in French but you had to pay for it because it was run by an outside organisation. Free after school extra curricular activities were organised of course, so for example fencing but foam swords were used as real swords are expensive and expensive fencing clothes and masks are obligatory if real swords are used, the indoor swimming pool was opened once a week for free but supervised by a teacher not a swimming coach, DS's form teacher ran the weekly free gym club although admitted to me she knew little about gymnastics but she got paid to run it, and the deputy head run a lunch time beginners recorder club although he not only couldn't play the recorder he was also non musical again he was paid (by the school) to run it. The children received good education in the core subjects, there were plenty of extra curricular activities as I said many were successful at the grammar entrance exam but the education lacked the breadth that my DS's prep was in a position to offer because it simple lacked the resources. Each parent at the prep was paying then £5000+ a term that was more than the primary school received a year for each child I did a brief stint on the schools finance committee.
There maybe just maybe the odd primary school out there offering the same things as top preps do but a couple of ladies I walk my dogs with occasionally whose DC's go to our local outstanding idyllic highly regarded primaries were asking me about my DS's experience at their prep they were simply amazed that they'd had these opportunities and wished their DC's had half of them.
Ive also been looking very carefully at a huge primary 800+ for one of the children I work with, it was very interesting the head was "head of the year" his commitment was impressive, he was increasingly getting teachers to teach their own subjects where possible especially to yr 5/6, in a deprived area he was providing on the school premises weekly dental surgeries, GP surgeries, education for parents, the job centre held a weekly session, a specialised area with appropriate help for victims of torture/war crimes, he was an excellent fund raiser constantly tapping local and national business he was committed to offering his pupils as broad a curriculum as possible but he admitted he couldn't compete with a couple of our local top preps in terms of curriculum depth or facilities, he was embarrassed at the shabbiness of his buildings, much of it was done in dilapidated buildings, he dreamed of having a swimming pool, a fleet of minibuses and of course more outside space with a pond and age appropriate swings climbing frames etc.

Tuppeny hang on a minute ..........................
Ok I've just read back through what I've posted I was and am talking about "top prep" school not once have I said all prep schools in fact I've been quite scathing about the crammers and I frequently comment on other threads that I would pay for many independent school be they prep or senior if 1. I was living in an area with good state school and 2. I had the time and there were plenty of extra curricular activities available within a sensible distance to my home. I was also the one who advised the OP not to spend her money on a pre prep because I feel there is no need.
I'm reluctant to use the word elite but ok if that makes my post more understandable I'll use the word "elite prep schools" I believe that these offer a significantly broader education than a top primary school.

Retro,
We all choose to spend on our DC what we value the most, our values are different no one is better than the other, what works well for my family, may not suit yours. I want a large family, I also want private education, maybe by the time my 2 little ones get to secondary school age, there will be no need for me to spend my money on education.

I cannot sum up why we choose private for DD to you as my reasons will not be the same as yours, you may not have come from the same background as I, and I may have different aspirations to you. I want my DC to be better/do better than me, that is my wish.
So of course I want a school that has good academics but offers the added value of being/offering/having the extra on my wish list:

Single sex this was negotiable, not a clincher.

Ethos that fits my aspirations as a parent- non negotiable.

Teachers who I viewed were the right type of role models for my DD non negotiable ( for example many of the state local primaries I visited were all staffed with young, unmarried female teaching staff , hardly any male teachers unless they were cooks, security or maintenance. Also having mixed children I wanted them to see different role models).

DD is very artistic, can create lovely drawings, pottery, 3D models, has beautiful handwriting, wanted a school that would nurture her love of art. My sister is an artist and we do take her to galleries etc, but during school time I wanted her to learn how to develop her drawing skill, use of utensils etc non negotiable to me.

DD likes to dance and loves athletics, an loves to compete in athletics wanted a school that was pro competitive sports, not "everyone is a winner" - was a must for me.

Wanted specialist teaching from year 1 and not year 3 non negotiable.
Wanted multicultural school non negotiable.

Wanted a school that was a linguistic school (DD has 4 separate languages spoken by each grandparent). Desirable.

Wanted a school where Reception to year 2 are separated, this was only a desirable.

Wanted smaller classes between 18- 20 - again this was a desirable.

Wanted a through school - this was a must, but if DD wanted to go to Art college school encourages this.

And much more, got pool, grounds, etc.. all more than the academics, most of the private schools I visited offered this, I went with the one that fit my ethos as a parent and DD would love to learn there.

Happy to spend my money on it. I am more of the now then later Id rather spend the money on her education now rather than save it for uni later, who knows what the education system would be like in 10 -15 years time. Id rather spend the money now rather than save for a deposit for a house..

DD may not be obsessed being mortaged to the hilt with home ownership, DD may not even stay in England, so the languages will help etc.

Thats a top prep, agree sounds brilliant. But not many are as good. For us, one of the v top state primaries does far exceed the local private.

Wouldn't pay not would!

Swift I've obviously not made myself clear although I don't know how I could have made it any clearer at every stage I said top prep school if it helps here are examples: Dragon, Summer Feld. Not you average run of the mill prep.

SwiftRelease

I don't think you have read my posts, it doe not, but it gets me what I want as a parent and I. Lets be honest there are some independents not just the elites, as many of the elites are in the top 20 in terms of exam results, but they are better than many state forget grammars, schools and vice versa.

My chequebook, has provided a better all round education for my DD that my 3 local state schools could not match and I did not want to be limited to those schools which I may not have got into anyway.