The Trinity Whitgift Dulwich 11+/10+ thread 2014 pt2

[LadyMuck]

Anyone still out there?!

Poozie, I have called Foundation and they have adviced me to call the school, which I have done. The lady in admission was Very nice and helpful, but it seems that it is very unlikely for us to receive a bursary unfortunately. For now our file is on the bursary re - consideration pile.

The results at AS were mixed when i was there. Some boys fell down and other schools picked up the pieces and I am glad that those boys I knew went on to good unis post a2 despite the setback. My point is that a school has to work with the boys. I agree the jump to AS is big one in basically 2 terms so you need the school to keep being supportive and not abandon ship so easily.

The main complaints I've heard around "culling" (what an awful term that is!) were the lack of transparency (different rules applied to different boys), the method of communication and the fact that stunned parents (now ex parents) couldn't talk to senior staff when results came out. Most schools have some sort of 6th form policy, and I have to say that until 5 or 6 years ago I honestly thought that Whitgift's policy was usually very generous with up to 20% of boys getting through provided they kept the trophy cupboards well stocked. Dr B tried to get Whitgift out of league tables, but that didn't really happen. Now they're trying to compete on an international level, the results matter more than ever, and a more, shall we say, ruthless approach seems to have been adopted. At a time when Whitgift have been actively trying to recruit more full fee payers, some prep school staff have been concerned that boys were joining who realistically would never have a chance of getting into 6th form. As I think Needmoresleep said, it does depend on what the alternatives are.

In terms of finances, number of pupils on fee remission etc, all of these schools lodge reports and accounts with the Charity Commission, so anyone can see the investment portfolio of the Whitgift Foundation (though past performance is no indication of future income etc etc!). You can get a good idea of the Headmasters' salaries and the annual bursary pots are clearly stated - £300k in new bursaries for W for all year groups, £270k for T, £250k for OP for last year -, and even how much the boarding house cost. Almost all private schools, prep or senior, lodge this kind of information. As they state the average number of pupils on some form of fee remission, you only have to know the rough number of boys in a yeargroup to have an idea as to the numbers needed. Have to say I would always advise any parents to look at their schools accounts occasionally as it can prevent surprises. Justanotherusername posted links to the City of London report showing details of how the scholarship applications worked out. This is info in the public domain if you know where to look. Not everyone does. We're certainly not trying to patronise anyone by sharing it.

My comment this morning wasn't intended to be a dig at Whitgift as such - any school with a large intake (I specifically mentioned DC too) can pose difficulties for those at the bottom of the pack, though as others have pointed out the difference in maturities at different ages is huge, and it is not uncommon for someone to be rejected at one age, but to get a scholarship at an later point of entry.

Parents and staff in private schools will probably have seen the good and the bad across a lot of schools over a number of years. Those who have come into the process late either bouyed or dismayed by grammar school results, or looking further afield than the local schools, may be less aware of some of the areas that may cause concern further down the line. For those parents having their first encounter with private education then there are some issues that you take for granted in the state sector that don't always apply in the independent sector, and sometimes surprises in how independent schools work (and even independent school vary from one another etc).

My aim in starting the thread is to support those who are going through this process mainly for the first time, as has been done in previous years. Prep school parents will be aware that W has added pupils to the year group where they can, so current Lower third (Year 8) will exceed 200 in Upper third. T prefer to keep to their published numbers except for a one off blip. It impacts the way in which the schools make offers and manage their waitlists. That sort of info may be useful to a new parent - some may not have thought to ask what size the intake is each year.

These are all good schools, indeed excellent schools. For those with offers I hope that you find the right school for your dc. For those still hoping for a place or an award, then hang on in - there will be plenty of offers turned down over the next 2 weeks. If you're disappointed and haven't made contact with the school then do so - it does no harm, as KPP1 discovered. I've been on these threads in previous years so know to bow out once the lurkers come on to have a snipe. No doubt will see some of you in summer threads on school uniform, what phone and can my child really use public transport with these bags?, as well as the "My 11 year old has lost his trousers/shoes/Oystercard/head" threads that will follow...

I for one would like to thank you for being so generous with your research and experience, Lady Muck. Over the years you've helped to keep parents grounded on this thread and you've shared some strategies that have made real differences to the prospects of DCs all over South London. Your posts are always thoughtful, measured and impressively well informed.

Ditto asterisk. I wish I'd had a lady muck in my corner 5 years ago.

Just to correct something made on a previous post - most state (non-selective) schools' 6th forms want a B at gcse to take the subject to A level.

I would like to second Asterisk too, Ladymuck - your posts on this forum have been extremely helpful to me. I was one of those parents going through this for the first time a couple of years ago. Your input has been especially helpful for those moving from state to private education as we get no help or advice from our primary schools in this regard whatsoever!

at the insinuations on this thread. Sometimes less academic/sporty/musical kids can find it motivating and challenging to be among an aspirational year group in a selective school, discovering something within themselves they didn't know was there, for others it can be demotivating and they don't achieve their potential. Sometimes those who are not given extra opportunities are not even aware they exist so don't feel they miss out and go through the school perfectly happily. Also for those who have been awarded scholarships there is an ongoing pressure to maintain that , which can be hard on those who were heavily tutored/trained for the exam success. This is not singular to W btw , it is as true of state grammar schools, past and present, prep schools, selective secondaries and even state primaries offering a G & T programme. You simply need to be prepared for the environment your dc will be entering and that in some cases you are buying into.

Good luck with the decision making over the next few weeks.

Truda, all the best consideration, stranger things have happened, so don't quite give up yet.

Hi Ladymuck, just seen this thread (now it's ending!). You were very helpful to me last year. Will be doing whole process again next year with Ds2 and wondered if there is any info out there regarding sibling offers at indies. Do u know (or anyone out there) of many cases where sibling is rejected (assuming exam passed etc etc)? I believe there is no 'sibling policy' as such but wondered how the schools viewed this. I seem to recall the application asking the order where DS was in relation to other siblings but can't think where this information would have been usefull.
Also wondering how many would get purely academic instead of all round , is it top 1% in entrance exam for instance, or just discretional?

Academic scholarship I meant.

My ds got a place at W for 10+. Really chuffed but disappointingly no scholarship. I did call W to see if any movement on this and to get a bit of extra info on how he did in exam etc. Apparently he did very well in exam (top 20%). The guy in admissions said that perhaps ds could be eligible for a scholarship next year if he works hard in year 6. Does anyone know if W do offer scholarships to boys that are already attending and have signed up to full fees? I must admit I was quite dubious. Its a huge decision for us financially and just trying to weigh everything up!

I would think that a scholarship award after joining may be possible but would happen only in exceptional cases.

Anyone actually turned down offers yet? Dippingbackin any decisions on your very nice dilemma? If you decide on 13+ place at KCS will your DS stay at current school? Keepingittogether did you pluck up courage to ask for more award? I will phone re our situation but still waiting for that quiet uninterrupted moment. Not sure that will happen during half term, Aaaahh!!!!!

The way I see it is that Ladymuck has posted some facts, but they are heavily laced with personal opinions, which is biased. (Something she has alluded to herself). There have been subtle and not so subtle digs at W from first thread, and it appears she can't stop herself, eg ....'until 5/6 years ago W's policy was very generous.....as long as the boys kept the trophy cupboards well stocked'. There are a lot of independent schools that have withdrawn from the league tables for obvious reasons, so not sure why that one has been particularly referenced to W.

I work for a large organisation and that employs people in different professions, and I have met various people who attended a fair number of local independent schools, as well as people with children in these schools. As a result, I get to hear things I wouldn't ordinarily know. Believe me, culling is not any more ruthless or less transparent in W. There is always someone that has an unpleasant story or 2 to share, that includes Caterham, which I believe is her preferred school. W is still very much a preferred school with people I know, but I am not stating this as a fact that applies to everyone!

As mentioned, we are from a local coed ( in the private sector), as well. And unlike ladymuck's school, not all the boys in our year who sat the W exam got called for interviews. And to insinuate that people who didn't pass the exams/ not up to scratch have places in W, in order to get full fee paying candidates, is a bit far fetched. I know some DM's that have been upset reading this, knowing how hard they have worked and how clever some of their DSs are. All schools need fee paying candidates and W is not different in this respect. I don't know of any candidates in our school or outside who sat multiple exams and got a place in W and didn't get one elsewhere. Our teachers are not concerned that W is lowering their standards by allowing people in who wouldn't make it to 6th form. How do you predict that for certain at this age?

Yes, a great deal of financial matters are in the public domain, if you know where to look. I agree with this but it doesn't provide one with enough details to make predictions of exact numbers of full fee paying students a school within a big organisation needs, with such authority. W is 1 of 3 schools within the foundation. I am sure there are people in employment to make sure that the plans of the foundation are not solely dependent on how many full fees payers 1 school has. Dr. B like the CEO of any large organisation, has to work towards the goals and missions of the organisation at large. While he can bring his own ideas, the foundation has to buy into it. I don't think for 1 second that he is going off on a tangent of his own to achieve his own agenda. The foundation won't allow that no matter how important or influential he is. The whitgift foundation is still one of the most generous in the country as far as financial help is concerned, hence the the popularity of the schools.

It does make sense, in order to capture a larger/ wider ranged population, for the foundation to use the different schools to target different population groups both internationally and locally ( with some overlap of course). Maybe this is what they have chosen to do. After all, the competition between independent schools is strong, and people are willing to travel further afield to get value for their money. Only time will tell. A good move for example is T's 6th form becoming coed, as this will appeal to those who think coed is a good thing at this stage. I think Mr. B is an excellent HT, don't know if it was his idea, but definitely a good move. To think if the T head teacher post had become open a year later than it did, he may have stayed on in Caterham instead!

It is important to support people going through this challenging process without bias. And to post facts as facts and opinions as opinions.

What we agree on is that all these schools are excellent schools, but we mustn't take our feet off the pedals, just because our DC, have got in. They will still need our guidance and we will need to engage with the schools. I, also wish everyone the best with decision making and hope that those waiting for good news, get the news they want.

pooziepuzzle we are still no further forward. W is probably first choice but the journey is a huge consideration. Got two weeks of dithering to go!

Travelling is major factor I agree. KCS is our local independent but we didn't apply as only about 11 places for 11+. Didn't occur me to enter 13+ but DS in state sector so would need to move now anyway. Don 't think many turn KCS places down though, it is very very sought after.

Just a quick post to say that I have found Ladymuck's knowledge and experience extremely helpful. I have found this thread very supportive and I hope to continue to do so. It is great to have RL and virtual fellow parents to share information with.

I look forward to hearing about everyone's choices!

Re culling activity; it is probably more cruel and unsettling to be culled after year 12, so students could well be at risk of this when entering a school's sixth form without an A at GCSE . It should be noted that often schools with excellent results have selected at entry, followed by pruning after year 11 and 12 so you would expect stellar results . In essence a local comp using the same system could probably produce something similar !

The manipulation of league tables has brought about this ridiculous state of affairs , we as parents have propagated it and now our children may be culled and feel like failures as a result. Schools are just playing the game or they will slip and parents will vote with their feet , who can blame them ?

Well said Rockwithu. I've appreciated this thread enormously throughout this stressful process but have been slightly annoyed by cynical remarks re W. IMO you are only qualified to pass advice/judgement on a school if you've actually had a child attend that school. Otherwise it's just an opinion based on hearsay.

Agree with all posters - very valid points. The same thread last year took a similar 'tone' as to what is happening now. Wonder why it is particular to W. Any thoughts?

There are always cynical remarks about W. There were last year, I expect there will be next year.

I'm not quite sure why. I agree that the admissions process is something of a slog and they could do with getting out the 'thanks but no thanks' letters faster than they currently do. The whole thing is very stressful and anything that eases a parent's way/state of mind would be welcome.

My personal view is that it is an ambitious school, which spends a lot of money, isn't backwards in coming forwards about its facilities and its grounds (ie The Blasted Peacocks), expects results and doesn't have too much time for those that don't achieve on some level. That sits badly with some people (ridiculous imo but there we go). Trinity, for example, has a reputation for being a much 'nicer', 'friendlier' school, and rarely gets the flack that W does. Fwiw, so far in our experience with W, it's been incredibly friendly, accommodating and inclusive, but it's surprising how many people disbelieve you when you say that!

And, let's be honest, it's bloody expensive. It's completely reasonable to ask whether a school is worth its fees, and some parents might conclude that W is not. However, I'm tempted to suggest there is a wee bit of inverted snobbery going on there too...

All imo, of course . No school is perfect. No school will get everything right. If you don't go into this process with your eyes wide open, more fool you.

Thanks Fatalflowergarden and good to hear from someone who actually has a DS there!

I agree re the admissions process. Does W no favours at all and could seriously put some people off. But i dont think the other criticisms levelled at W are specific to W - as you say Fatal, no school is perfect. All we can do is pick the school that is the most perfect for our particular DSs.

Well said Fatal. I remember well the cynicism directed to W last year
Rockwell - to back up your argument 're anyone getting in, I also know of people who's Ds was interviewed, had a call back for sports assessment and still not offered a place, and others rejected after interview despite being told they did really well in the exam.

This is a supportive thread but as a seasoned parent of DCs in DC and W I have been(shocked)at some ofladymucks comments presented as fact. So many firsts timers are looking for advice it is important to state what is conjecture and what is fact. The little digs at W were neither helpful or necessary.