The Trinity Whitgift Dulwich 11+/10+ thread 2014 pt2

[LadyMuck]

Anyone still out there?!

Hmmm, at a friends yesterday for a 40th party lunch and met four parents (one who posts here too... morning :-)). Interestingly another guest is involved operationally with Old Palace and as none of us have DD's more than happy to discuss the foundations view point etc. It appears that W has widened the net overseas and is running music, sport and the arts international events to capture talent abroad and bring them to W. W also has plans in place for a new science and music/drama complex opening in 2016 making it the best school in the UK in terms of facilities. In their forecasts W predicts an increase of more than 30% in demand for places, much being generated from overseas.

The overseas competitions give the winners the prize of free places and boarding, W believe that the talent attracted so far in the new boarding facility is world class. The OP person said that there are plans to expand T to provide places for boys that would have previously won a place at W, a sign of that is T are offering bigger incentives this year and W much less as W feels it has such a pool of demand it will pool funds and use this to invest more in fewer boys rather than the previous approach where academy level boys pretty much always received 30%.

The OP person felt that W has become more elitist over the past five years and when talking to colleagues at W they are under more and more pressure to achieve the highest levels of performance. The feeling and goal is that W will become a highly competitive elite global school with an ever growing international pool of students and a larger T will continue to provide and outstanding environment albeit softer and less competitive than W. OP is looking to relocate to a new site and grow to offer a higher quality of sport and academic. The foundations dream is that Croydon, with Westfield, will become more internationally renowned and as the foundation owns much of it joint initiatives like that with Westfield are a major part of the foundations plans and objectives.

Mr B is a salesman. On of the other for P's whose DS (11+) sat W and T and DC was told by B that her DS was top ten for maths and top 20 for english and a definite consideration for scholarship. Result W= 0% T= 20% DC= 0%. It certainly appears that W are being very selective this year, 10+ faired even worse at W apparently. Mr B needs to tone down his patter if this is a continuing trend.

I must admit that I feel better about my own offer fro W although below expectation DS was clearly very very fortunate. More vino drank this weekend than any other time and hotel chic chocs munched and munched and munched!

The boarding at W was definitely a consideration for us last year. I felt it would change the dynamics of the school and felt, for my DS, T definitely the correct choice.

Very interesting and informative read Keepingittogether.

Do not worry about either DC or Alleyns being too academic.

1. Neither school would have offered a place if they thought your child was likely to struggle. A child who is struggling takes up so much more time than one who is comfortable, engaged and contributing, and the numbers applying are such that they don't need to take risks.

1. Both schools will have kids coming through their junior schools who will not have been selected so rigourously. These are big year groups. Most private schools don't advertise who is at the top or bottom, and setting is by subject. By University entry the boy who struggled in a low set maths has just as much chance of getting into Oxford to read English as a boy who was in the top set.

1. It all changes again at secondary. My own DD started flying in maths/science at around the age of 13. She is dyslexic and so still hopeless at English and does not do herself justice in essay subjects, but by the time they get to choose options this becomes less important. (Good schools can still get children to good grades in their weaker subjects at GCSE level.)

1. In Yr 7 there was a noticeable group of "top table" girls who came through from primary, ready to work very hard and seemingly intent on pleasing the teacher. I assume they would have been more dominant at in Yrs 5 & 6. By year 9 this group had pretty much dispersed. Some are still clever, some still work hard but don't find some subjects easy. Some of the more quirky and some of the quieter girls have found real talents that put them ahead. The same will happen for the boys.

1. By secondary application, engagement and attitude count for a lot. A charming bright but lazy boy who becomes a party animal will not do well. A less bright boy who listens in class and does his homework will do better. They have all passed tough competitive exams. Really now it is up to them.

1. Co-eds will know how to teach mixed groups. There will be some issues, like cocky boys calling out or girls being more diligent, but children will have to face this at some stage. Girls will dilute an all-buy environment (obviously!), though distract a minority. It really is a question of whether your sons will absolutely thrive in an all boy atmosphere or prefer to have it challenged a bit.

We need to choose between JAGS and Alleyn's (so journey time factor is not going to help)for DD. Never thought I would be in this position, but here it is.

I always liked Alleyn's and the concept of a co-ed school for her, but at an open day I quite liked JAGS. And JAGS results are way better even though purportedly it's harder to get into Alleyn's. I feel that Alleyn's atmosphere is a bit warmer/more supportive. On the other hand, open days/interviews are sales events and how much can I really judge? DD is first child so no experience of secondary school at all, no benchmarks - how do I judge quality of the teaching, pastoral care, effectiveness of dealing with bullying, what kind of child will do well there, etc.

I would appreciate any points of view on JAGS vs Alleyn's and how I can go about it until March 5th to make an more informed decision. A bit about DD:

1. Very bright, but not child prodigy level. CATs in high 120s/low 130s, rather than off the charts (much stronger NVR). Will she get overwhelmed by alpha girls at JAGS? Or scarily high-achieving girls (as basildonbond put it at Alleyn's). She got academic scholarships to both, but that's to some extent luck of the draw on the day - DD is quite good at exams (according to her HM) as she doesn't stress out and can pull herself together.
2. Borderline dyslexic + handwriting issues (we got EdPsych report done a couple of years ago, but no diagnosis “she is just a bad speller” was the verdict). Her workbooks look a mess (although have gotten a lot better in Yr6, but still not the "neat girl's work to go on display"). This is in stark contrast to the ones I saw on display at JAGS. Those almost gave me a heart attack.
3. Very far from being a perfectionist – she is not the driven, ambitious type who’ll work night and day to come top in exams. She often doesn’t even remember if a test is coming up and who got what in exams. She is just (at least for now) not interested in this aspect. She can and will work hard if she is interested in the subject and does not rebel when pushed to work harder, but will not initiate extra work. I have heard of girls who will ASK for more worksheets and will do more homework of their own accord. This is not my DD.
4. Pleasing the teacher is not her top priority. She is by no means a rebel, but her motivation comes from being interested in the subject and/or having an inspirational teacher rather than desire to please the adults/parents/etc, confirm, etc.
5. Independent thinker, non-linear, easily grasps abstract concepts and big picture. I don’t think she ever had issues in terms of conceptual understanding of anything so far really – at times I actually find the depth of her insight surprising (even in humanities subjects which she seems to like less than science).

6.Not a “girly” girl, quite quirky – completely oblivious to girls’ politics and gossip. I worry she’d be eaten alive at a girls school. I worry that she won’t even be able to read all the intrigues/interactions, let alone handle/survive. May be, I have a twisted view of girls’ schools but I worry that teenage girls can be very cruel towards each other, especially in a pressure, academic environment.

Thank you for getting this far!

Trying to make v similar decision - happy to 'talk' via pm if you like ... On phone so can't see any way to pm you

I have learnt the hard way that intuition is important on this decision, and I am normally a rational person, with my dd's latest school move I actually constructed a decision matrix with the factors weighted for importance and how the school scored. It was a marvel but she went to the one that scored least and it has been a huge success.

I have also learnt that results reflect selectivity and all these schools are capable of enabling a bright pupil As and A*s. My DD just moved from a very selective school to a less selective one and just got amazing AS results which she does not think she would have achieved at the other school for all it is in the top 10 of the league tables. She finds the teaching more encouraging and more focused on her as an individual and she feels she is no longer a small fish in a big pond.

So that leaves lots of intangibles that will affect which school will make your DC happiest and I think you and your DC do get an instinct about what feels right.

On the single sex issue I think if you get an dysfunctional year with some difficult characters single sex can amplify that. Somehow the presence of the other sex dampens the worst excesses of the bitching amongst girls and bullying amongst boys. The problem is that you cannot know whether your DCs are going to be in a year where these attention seeking characters come along and subvert the norms. My older DD really benefitted from all the positives of a single sex environment, no distractions, tailored teaching, encouraging my DDs inner Science geek, but at the same school my other DD encountered a cliquey culture of bitchyness and exclusion. Even my older DDs year was scared of them, and I consoled her she won't ever encounter that again unless she ends up in a women's prison! Sadly that isn't something you can anticipate.

Keepingittogether interesting post - some I'm aware of - some I'm not so sure about. DS says a lot of the boarders are chinese but they may mean he's seen two boys whilst in a daydream..... he's never much help I'm afraid!

All schools are constantly changing and looking to the future - KCS did that a few years ago and is no longer the local school it used to be - so nothing would really surprise me especially when they have three schools within the foundation to face forward so to speak.

I will pass on that I've been told of at least 4 boys who've been offered generous scholarships at 13+ this year and there may be a couple of others too - usual thing, high achieving in sport particularly and possibly music. Not sure they usually offer that many in that age group either so that will have affected the pot. I also know of two good sports scholarships at 11 plus and obviously don't know if they post on here. Last year from memory Whitgift appeared to be more generous but maybe it was just that the Trinity crowd didn't post as much - and maybe this year its the other way round.... What we do know is that it was incredibly competitive and a huge amount of candidates, which means that many are disappointed and that is very sad when the DC have worked so hard and the parents too. Good luck to all still waiting - don't give up - FatalFlowerGarden from last year is I believe happily ensconced at a Whitgift parent when all seemed doomed this time last year

basildonbond pm'ed you!

Needmoresleep - thank you so much for your incredibly helpful post.

It does seem to be such a difficult decision but only in the sense that I think DS will be happy at either Alleyns or Dulwich but I just want to choose which school will make him happiest IYSWIM. But as someone else pointed out he could end up in a cohort with children/teachers that really suit him or one that doesn't. But I have no control over that!

Regarding Whitgift, if it's any interest DS's friend has been offered 35% all round scholarship based on top 10 English result, near top 10 maths, grade 4 music plus sports assessment ( no callback). He is unlikely to accept the place, prefers DC or Alleyns.

Very interesting info about Whitgift change of direction, I assume they will still need "normal" (full fees!) children to make up the numbers .

New to this but just thought I would share. Mistakes do happen.
Applied to W and T and received scholarship offers from both. However, W letter was silent on the bursary. Was about to give up on W place when I thought I would check with them. W had received no info from the Foundation that we had applied for a bursary place. W will now get in touch with the Foundation.

Shootingatpigeons - very interesting about your 2 dd's. A friend of mine encountered something similar at her dd's primary school, the eldest had a great class group and the younger dd had a couple of really difficult children in her class, totally changed the dynamic.

I wish I could go with my intuition but the problem is that I really like both schools! DH slightly prefers DC and I slightly prefer Alleyns. We do have a younger dd so that might move us more towards Alleyns.....

Irisha - I have no personal experience of Jags but I have heard from two friends with girls there that the pastoral care is not as good as Dulwich or Alleyns (they have younger children at these 2). For one of the girls this has been fine as she is very independent and a real self starter, for the other girl it has been harder but she is getting used to it now. Her younger brother is at Alleyns and my friend said he has had a much more nurturing experience than his older sister had at Jags.

keepingittogether thanks for your very helpful post, it shows we should judge the schools with a five year perspective or so, which is impossible if we do not know their plans.
Does anybody know how scholarships were awarded at T and W for 10+ this year at all? I have a friend who is livid her DS did not get any, and she was spoken to by the HM at interview.

We are on w/l at T for 10+, let's see what happens after 5 March. We may leave it another year and try a wider number of schools BUT we have been disappointed by our prep who told us they would have supported DS for the exams, and basically did nothing. Now, it is clear that it is not in their interest to see him leave, but they could have simply said 'we do not prepare for 10+', it would have been more truthful and we would have helped him with some preparation in the autumn. I am incredibly upset but I cannot say anything in case DS stays at the prep for another year. Biting my fingernails ... Any suggestions? Do you know if such behaviour is acceptable from a prep? strategies anyone???

... And congratulations to all your boys and girls for such fabulous results!

Ipreferletters. I can't help with any info on scholarships at 10+, I'm afraid. My Ds is currently in state primary and I only know one other person who sat the T 10+, and they haven't got scholarship. I'm surprised at the prep school not helping, as it was my (obviously incorrect) assumption that children in prep schools started on the whole comprehension, vr and non vr side of things very early on in the juniors? I would be interested to know as my DS is also on the reserve for T 10+, and if he doesn't get offered a place it was my intention to move him for the end of year 5 start of year 6 in order to maximise his chances next time round. I was hoping prep schools would start this process early...

Good luck with the waiting game. (Did you manage to get an indication of how many are on the w/l as they wouldn't give anything away when I called them!) Roll on 5th March.

it was my intention to move him for the end of year 5 start of year 6 in order to maximise his chances next time round. I was hoping prep schools would start this process early

To be honest, I don't think moving to a prep school for Y6 would be worth it. That's only one term of preparation for the exam - personally I think the money would be better invested in a private tutor.

Me too! Year 6 is an easy year at prep school as all the work has been done! Invest in a tutor!

D you think? Was thinking it might help cos he doesn't have half a year preparing for SATs etc...seems to be what the mums of his current school think who have had boys in year 6. That it is a totally wasted year..Good to know, tho. Will have to have a serious think about going forward. He did have a tutor, but I was thinking if I could combine into the school day he wouldn't be so cheesed off by the whole thing! Also, is there not a sort of unwritten relationship between the preps and the indies? Eg if a child underperformed in an exam there would be calls made between both HM? I am sooo not knowledgeable on this business....this thread has really helped. Thanks to all.

By the time they're doing the SATS and "wasting" half a year, the entrance exams will be done and dusted. DSs had a fabulous time in Y6 :)

This is only my experience - most kids worked really hard year 5 with grammar exams done in sent and all indies out the way early jan. So year 6 was a nice year with lots of activities, school trips, etc. I call it the maturity year. Time away from parents and to grow a little. Therefore, at my prep you would have wasted those fees.

Sept not sent!

Thank you ladydepp. As it turned out the decision for DS was easy. he loved Westminster and they offered him a place. We had also looked at City, Alleyns, Dulwich and Emanuel. They were all lovely schools and he would have been lucky to go to any of them. I don't know which one we would have chosen.

DD was a bit harder. She was offered places at two of the five schools she sat for. In the end we went to look at the two schools again, and suggested she sought out a favourite teacher to discuss options. Externally it would have seemed a no brainer as one school was perceived as "more academic" but both had their strengths, and it was not that simple.

We feel now, five years on, that she made the right choice, but would have probably felt the same had she gone to the other school. She found Yrs 7 & 8 quite tough, as individual girls got to grips with changing hormones, but this probably would have been the same at any school, and in retrospect we feel that both my daughter and the school handled it well. Yrs 9-11 have been very happy.

My perception is that most people end up thinking they made the right choice. These are great schools. A few won't settle, we know kids who have been a lot happier after moving. And there will be ups and downs. Kids change totally between the ages of 11 and 18, and there may well be times when any school is not fully meeting a child's needs.

At 11 our son would have prefered all-boy at Dulwich to co-ed at Alleyns. Our concern was that DC has a huge intake, and that our son was relatively quiet, not musical or artistic, and not the most sporty or academic and so might have got lost in the mix. Alleyns has a much smaller number of boys, and because girls don't count (at least they didn't then) he might have felt more visible. I think we have been lucky. Girls in the sixth form, all-boys before then, has been perfect. Yes, one or two may have got distracted (girls as well as boys) but for the very large part, and beyond the first few weeks, girls are just part of life in the classroom in the choir or on the hockey team, and on school trips.

So DC for yrs 7-11 and Alleyns for sixth form?! Seriously though it is a bit like choosing a primary when you tend to focus on reception, simply because you see your child in that setting, when in retrospect Yrs 5 & 6 were just as important. When looking round again it is worth paying attention to the sixth form provision and the sort of older teenagers the school produces.

One exception. If you have a daughter remember that demand for girls co-ed sixth-form places is high. If you think your daughter might want to move at that point, consider taking an Alleyns place now.

Thanks for all the info. I think it has more to do with the fact that in his head he was halfway out of the door at his current school. He requested T (!) and was keen to go through the process as some cricket chaps had talked about it.

We have never been overly keen on his current school It was a needs must school, due to relocation. He seems to spend half his time helping out less able kids during ICT, guided reading etc, (which I think has its place) but he seems to be a bit bored with it all.

I thought perhaps a prep would be more stimulating in year 6, but appears not. So onwards and upwards, as they say. Will just make sure he has some fun extra curricular things bits to keep him going next year. (As well as his tutor sessions!). Such sound advice on this board.

Have internet at last. Can rejoin the collective.

Great to see so many faces from previous years, as well as so much wisdom.

Prep for year 6: sorry, but too late. I do think that it is worth looking at preps, especially feeder preps for years 5 and 6, but the bulk of the preparation is year 5 given grammar exams in early September (and for co-ed preps girls schools start exams in November).

Choices: For the schools with larger intakes, and especially DC and W, I think it is worth asking for more detail as to where your ds fits in the overall cohort. Whilst the boys seem to have a ball, I think that parents of full fee paying boys in the bottom quartile occasionally look back and wonder what they paid for. Not all, but some, and especially those who aren't allowed back into 6th form.

Whitgift: Whilst I recognise aspects of the description of W's ambitions, a) these are possibly Dr B's thoughts but he will have to retire at some point; b) Dr B has always liked W having its "stars", but in recent years boys have been willing to travel further and it has lost some of its local talent pool to the likes of Westminster, KCS etc. Boarding fixes that - it has widened the talent pool again. But the reality is that W still need 120 full fee payers a year, which in the last few years has meant that that there is a wider range of ability on entry than at some other schools. If you are in the top half of the year, the academic opportunities are great - the language opportunities alone are amazing; if you are in the bottom third, then go in with eyes wide open.

But a lot comes back to big fish in small pond/small fish in big pond and what your own values are. These are all good schools, and you should trust your instincts in going round them.

3 March will be interesting. The changes in the Sutton grammar approach meant that more boys sat the Selective Eligibility than had ever applied before, and from a wider distance. No idea what it will do to the waiting lists and scholarship negotiations but interesting to see Caterham and Reigate seem to have made very high offers (30-50%) to potential grammar pupils from prep schools.

Interesting posts....

I would like to believe that the foundation have bought into Dr. B's ideas, if they are to go ahead, so when he does retire, all his good works won't retire with him. Also we assume he will play a big part in choosing his successor, when the time comes. What I can say now though is ( like a lot of other similar schools), there is a strong academic drive in W at the moment, irrespective of what quartile you are in, wether you are full fee paying or not.

As has been alluded to, the funding of all this is going to be interesting, will have to come to great extent, I suppose, from fees and other investments by the foundation. ( I have no idea, how all this works). Another interesting point is, I had heard, Trinity were looking to downsize, not increase in numbers, but I am certainly no expert on these things. I guess time will tell.

Interesting, re RGS & Caterham. Caterham especially, with the ones I know, have given a number of generous scholarships this year. I think it has got to be a good thing having healthy competition between the schools in the area.

All in all it has been an interesting year.

Ladymuck please elaborate on 'if you are in the bottom third then go in with your eyes wide open'. with TWO DNs in this catergory they are encouraged to do their best both academically in in co curricular activities.