why are some women content to do all the housework?

[honeydew]

I meet lots of mums in my local area who, like me, are stay at home mums with very young children but are prepared to do absolutely everything for their partners and DH's! They slave away cooking, cleaning and washing at home with no help and at the weekends, they still don't expect
their partners to do anything! I have friends who never get a proper break from their children, even if it's only for a couple of hours. Their DH's leave them to it 24/7. Is it just me who has found that old style patriarchy is alive and well in society once a woman gives up work to raise her brood? My DH does help me with baby DS, he also puts my older daughter to bed and washes up after I've cooked each night, so we work as a team. So many women I speak to say that their DH's are not 'hands on' parents and do virtually all the chores and baby changing/feeding. Oviously, if one partner is working during the week they can't do that much, but some men don't want to contribute at all it would seem! Are they just lazy or simply 'expect' women to fulfill that role?

Hmmm.

I think you should know kittywits, that having read a bit more of this thread, I would say that my houshold is a lot more like beatie's than yours.

And, although I don't work at the moment, I did indeed leave my son at a nursery before dd was born, like a "dog in a kennel".

I respect your choices. And obviously am prepared to defend them.

You've been rather rude about mine.

I've got some posts to catch up on so I think this will be the first of many tonight but here goes:

'bawc you have already said that you kids sit in poo whilst yo and your dp pretend you haven't noticed! my kids never sit in poo because it is my job to do it. I don't try and shirk (sp) my responsiblities.'

What I said was sometimes DP and I pretend we haven't noticed and see who can hold out the longest before changing the dreaded nappy. This probably lasts for about 5 seconds because dd2's nappies are quite potent. So I don't think there's any need to go calling the NSPCC because DP and I are 'shirking our responsibilities'! As far as I know there's only one person that shirks that particular responsibility TOTALLY on this thread and that's your dp.

Becky I have already posted an apology for my choice of words and for offending anybody, the post is there if you want to find it.

Beatie, you and I have come to the end of the line. No one insults my sons.

Enough already. Some of you are getting too rude, leave my children, my dp and preferably myself out of your abuse.

Nice people with or without opposing views are still welcome.

The fact that Kittywits sees men doing housework as emasculating and her other posts show that she sees house-work as ESSENTIALLY FEMININE as if there are some activities that are essentially masculine and some essentially feminine. I just find this incredibly depressing because this is the same mentality which saw girls doing 'Home economics' and boys' woodwork in the 50s, kept women out of education until late into the 20th century and keeps women out of certain jobs and certain positions still and, of course, keeps men from doing house-work, child-care and nappy changing.

There is nothing essentially feminine and masculine about any activities except the obvious (giving birth, breastfeeding etc). I honestly don't think my dp wouldn't feel or look emasculated while doing house-work or looking after the kids because he doesn't see these as feminine activity any more than I see driving a car as masculine (which people believed not too long ago). What was the point of women's liberation if people have these views?

Mr Kittwits you said, 'I don't work in the city cos I prefer to be here with dp, 5 children and my mother! '

Now do you really mean that you're at home with YOUR MOTHER or are you at home with Mrs Kittwits? What an interesting Freudian slip.

Mr. Kw:
Not so Freudian BAWC! My mother lives here too! (In a separate part of the house of course).

Look everyone - a "catfight"

arf

That's a relief Mr KW! My mistake.

Hiss. Scratch.

Wonder where Kitty stands on things like trousers. Are they a) masculine b) feminine c) just an item of clothing which human beings wear?

Here are some more:

1. Is changing a nappy
   a) women's work b) men's work c) something that needs doing when small child smells?

2. Is physics
   a) a boys' subject b) a girls' subject c) a subject involving peculiar particles and electrical thingies?

3. Is cooking
   a) women's work b) men's work c) something people do when they want to eat d) depends how much (if any) you're being paid for it.

Mr. KW (Replying to an earlier post):

But you don't understand BAWC, nappies aren't my responsibility so I'm not shirking it.

Oh and Kitty never stands on things like trousers.

Mr. KW:

I love multiple choice!

You're right, Mr KW, I don't understand. Can I ask another question, how is it that you work from 8.30-8.30 according to Mrs KW, are never in sole care of youngest children but still spend more time with your children than most men?

If this is true how much time do 'most men' spend with their children?

Doesn't anyone want to answer my survey questions. Decide whether you have got mostly As, mostly Bs or mostly Cs and I'll tell you what that means.

Last post then. KW/ Mr KW, I don't think Beattie was insulting your sons (after all she doesn't know them). I think she was just making the point I made earlier that our parents are our biggest role models and influences (OK some people mysteriously evade this, may not repeat patterns established by parents and many, many people react against this but you can't deny it's our first and strongest influence - just look at the way loads of kids repeat their parents' eating habits and parenting style) and if your sons are growing up in a family which is structured entirely along gendered lines and your sons see so many activities as gendered from nappy-changing to finanical decision-making and are influenced by your views on WOHMs and men being emasculated when they do house-work they are likely to find it quite difficult to get on with most women of their age.

Let's take a couple of scenarios. A hypothetical young man who has been brought up in a highly gendered family where mum does all home-making and the vast majority of child-care etc etc is employed by a WOHM with 2 kids and a partner who is a SAHD. How will he cope with being told what to do by her when he has grown up with the idea that women should stay at home with their kids? Or he marries a woman who wants to go back to work after kids and earns more money than he does and expects him to do his share of the house-work and child-care.

You have been very direct about your views on WOHMs and men doing housework etc with a bunch of strangers on this forum so these views must have been transferred to your sons. They are going to have a hard time in the 21st century if they expect to live a similar life-style to your own but they will also have a hard time if they have to reject all of these views and find a new way of living.

My dds have been brought up to believe men and women share domestic and paid work almost equally. They have seen experienced their dad looking after them nappies and all and decisions about money and almost everything being made together. I really don't think they would find a dominant, bread-winner type man attractive in the first place but if they did they would find it v difficult to live with them. Now you may say 'Good, cos I wouldn't want my sons to get together with girls like your daughters' but you and your dp are therefore limiting their potential to have relationships with women in any kind of modern or equal way.

As I said earlier, I have nothing to gain by makign you feel bad and I know what it feels like to incur the wrath of Mumsnet and if you and your DH lived your life and there were no kids involved then I certainly wouldn't say anything but I do think these are issues which should be raised because we all need to recognize that our influence on our kids can be positive as well as negative. It's not just about love and support no. Think about what some parents do to their kids when they over-feed them out of a misguided love and concern.

Mr KW:

Kitty was basically saying that I work 12 hours a day on average. (Since you expressed an interest, I get into my office at 9.00 every morning and leave at 8.30. I have a sleeping disorder which means I'll do a couple of hours at night. My work can also be done "on the hoof" e.g. this evening whilst putting the kids to bed I was trying to work out which way gold was heading given the current market turmoil and political tensions in the world. I could go on but I'm sure anyone reading this is bored already.)

And to go back to your question, I pop out of my office during the day to see KW, kids and anyone else who happens to be around. I also do several school and after school runs. It was my great pleasure today, for instance to play with our baby whilst KW was posting. Again, I could go on but my typing's not fast enough.

Most men spend an average amount of time with their children, everyone knows that.

Sorry, I didn't read the quiz closely but as you'd expect, I always get A's.

Which brings me onto a question for you BAWC, would you describe yourself as a book-lover? Maybe even a bibliophile?

Go Mr KW

Actually BAWC and Beatie (I think) I asked your questions re KW sons and about them being able to care for themselves when they get older/leave home etc and she was perfectly able to accept that she will need to teach them how to cook/clean whatever. I also think that people with such opposing views to each other on teh division of labour and equality in the home are unlikely to ever get married, as I think those issues will become clear WAY before a relationship gets to that point. Therefore although KW kids see her do all teh work (I saw my mum do it all, DH saw his mum do it all) I don't think this means they will necessarily assume all women do everything around the home. I really think you are making too many assumptions that kids follow exactly their parents lifestyles. If this were true, DH would be a high ranking army officer and I would be a housewife, as it is he is a struggling actor and I am an advertising manager. Out of dh and I and our siblings (6 of us, 4 boys, 2 girls), who all were brought up in very tradtional households (right down to me NOT getting sent to public school as my grandma didn't see the point for girls!!!) My SIL are ALL SAHM's, I am the only one who works, however all teh men do their fair share (bar my eldest brother) of cooking, cleaning, nappy changing the like. These are all emn who were brought up in a traditional public school background, with Army officer families on one side and Head Boy at Harrow School on the other!

So BAWC did we all fall far enough from teh tree???

BAWC. I'm just sad that a conversation I was enjoying had to come to the end it did. I really don't understand why some people become so vicious ( btw I am not counting you as one of them). Your arguments are reasoned ( mostly)it's like my opinions threaten their very sense of self or indeed are just threatening full stop. You argue on a purely logical level, with the odd dig thrown in, that's fine. it just makes me sad that some people have to resort to such low tactics. have a nice night

It is sad when you feel attacked Kitty (I was there earlier and I know how it feels). I like to think that I'm just discussing and questioning OPINIONS and IDEAS rather than attacking people as PEOPLE but some people get very critical of individuals which they shouldn't esp since they really can't know people on Mumsnet as individuals (unless they do IYSWIM). I hope I'm not one of those people. If I am I shouldn't be.

I think some of you are missing my point about parental influence. I'm not saying we all replicate exactly or even largely what our parents do in all areas of life just that we are INFLUENCED by them in ways that we are not necessarily aware of or prepared to admit. For example, my mum and dad had me and my sister (2 girls 2 years apart). They both did English degrees then MAs and became teachers albeit of different sorts and at different levels. My mum took time off to have us and went back to work part-time but has always worked outside the home for money (but because she wanted to) as far as I remember. My dad was present at both our births when this was rare in the early 70s and has been a totally hands-on parent ever since. He has always helped with house-work (washing, some sweeping, light cleaning, some cooking, lots of shopping, ironing) too.

I went to Uni to do an Enlglish degree then MA. I am a teacher. I have 2 girls 2 years apart. I have a partner who is also a teacher and a very hands-on dad who does loads of house-work. Like my dad he doesn't see paid or domestic work as women's or men's work - it's just different types of work which needs doing. Much of my expectations and disciplining of my kids is the same as that of my parents when I was young (e.g. I don't smack but I have very clear expectations about meal times etc etc). I honestly honestly didn't realize that there were still so many men who didn't or barely participated in child-care or house-work until recently (partly thanks to Mumsnet) and didn't realize that there were many women who chose to stay at home even after their kids were in school because they enjoyed house-work. I also honestly didn't realize that it was possible or common to spend hours and hours each day on house-work. That tells you how much my parents and upbringing have influenced me, my outlook and my expectations although again it's only recently and putting it in writing that I understand the extent of this influence (which was just influence and modelling adn never decision-making or pressure). But hold on. If you met my sister, at first glance you wouldn't know she was my sister or that she had had the same parents and upbringing. Although she also went to university and also did an English degree she is now a SAHM with 3 children (big age gaps between each) and a rich husband who is frequently away with work. She has no intention of returning to work that I can see. She likes money. She likes her lifestyle. She does a lot of cleaning and also employs a cleaner for several hours a day though her kids are in school. Her husband doesn't do much if any house-work. She has less clear or firm expectations for her kids. They eat what they want (not much) when they want. She will do anything for them. They read a differnt newspaper from us or our parents and have a different attitude to contributing to society (through taxation or work or both). BUT even though her lifestyle and many of her values are a complete contrast to mine or my parents they are a equally a product of our parents' upbringing. She reacted against it. She consciously chose differnet things. She lives in a different country and rarely sees us.

In terms of our parents' impact on our current lifestyle I would guess most people fall somewhere between me and my sister. They follow some but not all of what their parents did. BUT THEY HAVE STILL BEEN INFLUENCED BY THEM in almost everything they do and their values and expectations.

Of course, being loved and feeling safe with your parents is the most important thing (and I can often tell when my students have not grown up with these things) but other things are important too. I'm sure I read somewhere that the single most important factor in predicting whether a woman chooses to breast feed is whether her mother breast fed but this must also apply to your attitude to education, sport, career, your approach to discipline etc etc. Of course tehre are excedptions and of course there are people who consciously choose a different way from their parents (most of us do this in at least some areas) but we are still INFLUENCED by them.

So Kittwits' sons may look to replicate the kind of family dynamic which they grew up with, they may consciously react against it and choose an entirely different way of living or they may replicate bits and reject others but they will be INFLUENCED by their first and most important model for family living. And if they have been given the message that women stay at home and men who do housework are effeminate which they must have by modelling but possibly also more overtly (if Kitty speaks at home the way she does on here) they will come across a lot of conflict and have to do a lot of learnign whichever they choose.

I think you're right that girls like mine wouldn't be attracted to 'traditional' men who expect men and women to follow certain kinds of roles in the first place but in another 20 yrs when our kids are looking to form lasting relationships (if indeed they are) how many women will? Sorry, must stop hogging this thread. Off to enjoy the sunshine with my family.

not had time to read latest messages so not reacting to most of what's recently been said, but to bAWC - i honestly know no men like your husband, maybe it's where we live/the industry dh is in but IME the men i see around me just are not prepared/don't have time to do much around the house other than the traditional garden/car/finances type. I'm not a stepford wife type, btw - i work p/t but yes, i suppose dh is fairly highpowered and career-driven and this is the downside. It's not one i'm particularly happy with either but can't have everything - his income does mean we can afford a good lifestyle.

Hmm BAWC, as an amature psychologist I am thinking perhaps you are confusing KW with your sister..

Anyway, what I was going to say (and I meant that remark light heartedly BAWC) was that amongst the people I know the biggest influence on how childcare roles are shared is relative sizes of pay packet. I know that there are inequalities, but compared to a generation ago, for a very significant number of people I know it doesn't make financial sense for the woman to stay at home. Given that girls seem to be doing quite well at school at the moment compared to boys (and I know there are still problems of inequality), I think that this trend will continue.

Also, I am sure that there is more to the KW children than what their mum finds attractive in a man and whether their father changed nappies. Many of my closest friends have views that if they were expressed on a single thread on mumsnet would have me hopping up and down with afrontedness.

BAWC: I am assuming that you think your parenting dynamics are the best model you could give your children. Whilst I would say that no set up is ideal ( there is no such thing) there are set ups that are pretty good.
Who is to say that your take on life, view of the world is any more valid than mine?

You might think that my children are at some long term disadvantage because of the parenting role model they see. I know you are big on women's rights. They are no more at a disadvantage than yours, because BAWC, your view is entirely based on your feelings about women working and women's rights. It is just your point of view, not a fact set in stone.

I keep my opinions pretty well to myself as regards my children. I lead by example true,as does every parent, but I think my example very good. I am not going to say to them " I think that women should do this, that, not do this, this is what makes a man etc." That is their business and for them to discover over the coming years for themselves.

My children are very well aware that I had a "career" ( I still have a career, just not paid by the state ) before they were born and they are aware that I "gave it up" to have a better one ( in my eyes), to become a SAHM.
As I said in an earlier post they do like the fact that I did this for them. I think it is a very difficullt but vaild job to have, no less than any paid job. I really don't mind what other people think.
I really don't feel the need to defend my position because I feel very secure in it .
I would like my girls to be happy to be whatever they wanted. If they want to be a sahm it is because they have seen me make a sucess of it and I would say 'good career choice girls ,hope you have fun'

I would describe myself as a very forceful and asseretive person, who likes to get what she wants and be in control. My children can clearly see that being a SAHM is in no way linked to being a mindless drudge, dependent on a man and with no prospects! Which is what alot of people think of us as.

I have also been thinking a little about some of things said here yesterday. It amused me when I realised that people's initial angle was that I was poor put- upon woman who was being duped by her male chsuvanist bloke into a life of slavery and misery!! . Then as it became apparant that that was far from the case they started saying that HE had the raw deal beacuse he had to work so hard to support us! !! HA, Ha!!
It is as if no one could possibly allow themseleves to concede the fact that our relationship was happy, balanced and based on mutal respect and great affection. Someone even had the temerity to ask whether I had ever come across balanced realtionship/ household or some such thing. That really did make me chuckle!There HAD to be something wrong with us.
As I said to you yesterday I didn't have any problems answering them.
I have every confidence in my life style and choices. I baulked when their frustrations with me turned from questioning to abuse and personal attacks. I think it says more about the way they feel about thmselves . No one who feels secure needs to attack anybody else. I have said badly phrased things here in the past and I have apologised for them. I don't feel the need to attack, though my comments can be forceful, there is no agressive intent in my writing.

As for my sons, I'm certain they won't have any problems finding women, they're too clever and too good looking and that can get a man a long way!

Phew, how long has it taken to catch up with htis thread.

BAWC re your parents influencing us, of course that's true but our personalities, choices and other social influences also feed into that. I was musing on your breastfeeding statistic. In a society where bf is not the norm, and is still shuddered at by the Stupid, a mother's influence will be a deciding factor. However, if we lived in a society where everyone did it and it was overwhelmingly the norm, then the parent's influence is lessened. Where a society doesn't have a norm, I'd suggest, that's where old family patterns are perhaps more influential. Where a society has a very strong norm, the influence of the family is diminshed. OTOH that could be complete bollocks.