why are some women content to do all the housework?

[honeydew]

I meet lots of mums in my local area who, like me, are stay at home mums with very young children but are prepared to do absolutely everything for their partners and DH's! They slave away cooking, cleaning and washing at home with no help and at the weekends, they still don't expect
their partners to do anything! I have friends who never get a proper break from their children, even if it's only for a couple of hours. Their DH's leave them to it 24/7. Is it just me who has found that old style patriarchy is alive and well in society once a woman gives up work to raise her brood? My DH does help me with baby DS, he also puts my older daughter to bed and washes up after I've cooked each night, so we work as a team. So many women I speak to say that their DH's are not 'hands on' parents and do virtually all the chores and baby changing/feeding. Oviously, if one partner is working during the week they can't do that much, but some men don't want to contribute at all it would seem! Are they just lazy or simply 'expect' women to fulfill that role?

I'm a SAHM with two young children of 2 1/2 years and 10 months. Last year we moved out of London and into a more rural area. I have no family in the the same county, let alone just down the road and I go all day without seeing anyone, except shop assistants and playgroup once a week.

I've not had one full day off since my daughter was born and my family have never come up (even after I had an emergency cesaeran due to obstructed labour with my son) to give me support. My DH is very good and does everything he can but he works long hours in London and so can't do much except at weekends. So we are moving back to London where at least there is more support for mothers/children in terms of playgroups and activities. I come from the country so lving in London for me has its downsides but I can't go on with no supprt at all in a semi-rural area where the facilites for pre-schoolers are very poor.

So I definately think that the isolation factor os one of the biggest propblems women having children in today's society face. Most of my friends are either childless, work or have older children and just have no time to spare for keeeping my lonilness under control.

It does make me depressed sometimes and I try so hard no to make my children realise my daily struggle. I had a very sociable job as a teacher before and really enjoy working with others so its been very hard to adjust.

I know its been said many times before but there really is so little support for new mothers. Motherhood was a big ( although wonderful!) shock. My mum never taught me any parenting skills as I was an only child. My parents just pushed me to be academic and get a good career. All well and good, but what happens when you have a family and don't have luxury of a nanny?

I think my situation is very typical of the plight modern women face as parents. I thought being in a smaller, more 'villagy' community would help and I would find other women make friends with, but no, everyone keeps themselves to themselves or works. I've made a monumental effort to get out there and network but everyone is to busy for a mum and her babes. This has been my experience anyway. There have been a couple of people who I see here and there but its not enough to keep me mentally stimulated.

I don't know if it is harder for women today than in the sixties with all the coveniences of modern technology and health care but it seems there are other demons we face, which although not usually life threatening, result in many women suffering psycholoical/emotional stress as SAHM ( especially in the early years).

For me, the biggest problem was going totally unprepared from being an independent busy career woman to an unappreicated mum spending everyday in my home with two small children (can't afford childcare for two!).

If my own family aren't really that interested in my welfare as a SAHM, then why should wider society be? It's NOT a valued job unfortunately, despite what some people say so and no one bothers to make me feel appreciated except my DH.

Just getting things off my chest- excuse me ranting on !

I love my kid and am prepared to make sacrifices but until the staus of SAHM's improves, then my daughter wil face the same response from the world when she has children- I just hope I can prepare her! Having a family is still of the most fantastic things I've ever done. It is worth it, but the early years mostly on your own are at times, are real struggle.

I worked in a well paid career for 20 yrs before becoming SAHM - I've 'done my time' and I had sufficient recognition in that time not to feel the need for it now.

My pension is sorted from that period of employment, so no worries on that score.

I've done the working world - now I'm focusing on my family, and enjoying a more leisurely pace of life (did WOHM for a few yrs)

For now, SAHM is the right choice for me - who knows how I might feel in a few years time? - maybe I'll get a job then, but right now I'm having a career break.

40 - 50 years is a long time to be working, why not take time out for other things if you can afford to, without being condemned?

x posted with you honewdew - your are showing the other side of the coin. I think you are in the hardest period of being SAHM

hear hear honeydew!

agree entirely!

Lima, I very much agree with your post. Society has changed in so many ways since our mothers time and so much for the worse for sahms - isolation, lack of extended family to help out and generally lack of respect for what mothers do. It really doesn't help to polarize the issue. I think when looking at these issues we need to look at society as a whole. Its very interesting what you say about moving back to London because you had support there. I am about to move away from what little support I have.

Meant honeydew not Lima, but I agree with you too Lima, esp 40 -50 yrs long time to work without a break for your family - if you can afford it of course.........

Actually I find this subject fascinating because I think it does touch on the way society as a whole has changed - it mirrors what is going on on a wider scale. The isolation mothers feel must also be felt by older pple, younger pple. I have lots of discussions with my mother re this - she thinks I have it easy. Materially, yes we have things easier, but I think we have paid a price for that.

thanks nicegalsses and lima for your resonse.

To nicegalsses- i moved to a large village in Mid Kent from London and just found that there is very little going on in my area. You have to drive quite a way to other villages or the county town to find activities. I found that London had a bigger choice of things to do, many more toddler groups and more women with babies to make friends with on my doorstep so to speak.

My DH uses the car for work and as we only have one vehicle, I am stuck without transport and a big double buggy! So obviously, it depends on your situation and how much time and money you have to utilise the amenities in your local vacinity. I grew up in a village where neighbours helped each other out all the time but I think the world has changed and my experience of village life as a SAHM has been generally poor. People do say 'hi' but that's about it really. Hope you fare better and good luck with the move!

I think you are harking back to a very brief period in time Niceglasses. Mothers may possibly be more isolated now, but they get to spend time with their children - should they choose to do this.
Pre-first world war, apart from nursing babies this simply wasn't the case. Women were working in fields, factories, service just about everywhere. Children worked too, as soon as they were able & so did any old people who had survived that long. Women were still primarily responsible for the home but also in the majority of cases had fairly grim lives up until their early death - frequently in childbirth or shortly afterwards.

Yes, I suppose I'm talking about my mothers generation so young mothers in the 50s, 60s and 70s. I'm not saying it was better then for everything, I just think there wasn't the social isolation that we do have today and not just for SAHMs

Yes I agree.

I have two elderly neighbours nearby and they go for most of the week seeing no- one. I've invited them round for tea but they so far won't cone round. I think they feel too much pride sometimes to admit they need support. Either that or we smell or something! An old lady down the road from me lost her husband of 60 years a few months ago and says she tells me she sees very few people, except the odd relative once a week and the Tesco's delivery man. So yes it's not confined to mothers at all - it's happening to all age groups .

"What I haven't seen is anyone suggesting that women SHOULD sah when they have pre school children. I know this will offend. I reckon the mother , by evolution, is the best caregiver. I know there are women who have no choice and have to go back to work when they don't want to and that is awful for them."

You haven't seen that because most people recognise that it's b*llocks! . Mums can breastfeed - that's the only thing that they alone can do. There are plenty of people out there who can look after tiny babies - grandparents, aunts, uncles, paid CMs....and god forbid, how about fathers I have worked full-time since my eldest was 3 months old (1997) until a few weeks before my 3rd was born (2003)...and after that I went back part-time (30 hours a week). I partially breastfed DS#1 until 18 months, DD until 3 years and am still bfing DS#2 who is now 3yrs and 4months. So it is perfectly possible to breast-feed a child and work outside the home. So having dealt with that issue, please tell me what are these mystical things that only a mother can do for a baby - I'd really like to know.

As it is so clearly a bad thing for children to have a working mother I presume that it means that only wealthy men should be permitted to breed? Perhaps anyone who isn't earning a suitable amount by the time he comes to get wed should be chemically castrated. It strikes me as most unfair to only see men in terms of their bread-winning abilities - almost as bad as think that women are 'only' able to look after homes and kids.

I can assure you that I am one of those women who can't afford to stay at home. BTW thanks for feeling 'awful' for me. I hate my situation at times but it isn't made any better by some people's ridiculous adherence to the absurd idea that only mothers can bring up a child...and she can do it only by being with them 24/7.

[Deep breaths...calm, calm]

well yes i think of course there are plenty of other people who can look after children. It just depends on your situation and what works out financially for the better. I would like to go back to work part -time to give me some respite from being a SAHM of a 2 year old and a 10 month old but finances dictate otherwise. My DH and I have thought about doing a swap for a year or two so that I could go back to work full time and he stay at home instead.

Re: honeydew - your last post - isn't it 'just' () the disintegration of the extended family and a more community-focussed society ?

Your point about all the women being sacked Custy so that the men could all go back to work adn the family were no better off - well, with all the adults in the house going out to work full time, families are no better off now. Supply and demand. If you increase the number of workers, wages will go down. About 10 years I read a startling statistic, along the lines of in the USA although 30 years before only 40 hours were worked in the cash economy by the adults in the house (usually one adult, the man) now 80 hours are worked, but instead of being 100% better off (as would be logical) or even 70 or 50% better off if you take into account that women are on average still paid less, wages had depressed so greatly that the average family was only 6% better off. So who's benefiting? Women? Children? Families? Or employers, who are now getting 80 hours work for the same price as 40 hours 40 years ago? No wonder they paid lip service to the idea of equal ops, without ever actually putting any real equal ops into place.

Simplistic I know, but you get the point...

Has anybody else lost the thread of what we are actually arguing about...

Oh and by the way bawc it's nice that your DH can also take responsibility for your child when they're ill, but as beatie says most couples don't have equal priority jobs and that doesn't apply to lone parents - a quarter of all families in the UK. Even if couples could agree to share domestic tasks more equally, a quarter of families would still be knackered if all the adults in the home could only contribute by working in the cash economy.

to hub2dee- yes it is sad we have lost all that community focus. Maybe in other parts of the country community life still strongly survives but here in the busy South East I believe that way of life has been all but lost- perhaps for good.

I started this thread and have been interested to see how everyone has reponded to my comments on housework. The conversation has really moved around various topics affecting motherhood and women today as well as the concerns they have for their familiies. To me, it shows how strongly we all feel about the work/life balance and male/female roles in this country. At least I know I'm not alone in some of my views.

IMHO you can even see it in 'people like us' (youngish, with children, some at home, some at work....)... how often, truly, do we go 'round the corner to see a friend with kids ? There's a family with a baby v. close to dd's age about 30 seconds away (and they're lovely), but I don't go round more as I think there's a perception that a more isolated / independent existence (without constant to-ing and fro-ing and popping into each other's places is more de rigeur now IYSWIM).

I'd be much more up for some semi-communal way of life where it was much more normal to pool the day-to-day living / child-rearing IYSWIM (kibbutz style ?)

Big old saggy cloth cat hippy that I am.

Honeydew it is such a shame you have not found village life welcoming DH and I moved out to a village before dd was born, I got pg straight away though and we have found it is fantastic. In fact we have not really been able to take advantage of all the toddler groups etc etc that are around. Now my kids are older it is even better as the school becomes the focus and this way we have met loads more people. Me and my neighbours are always in and out of each others house, at one point the other week I had four nighbours helping decide a new paint colour for my conservatory!!

I do believe like many others that we may have found the crux of the problem here. This thread has gone through housework to SAHM to pensions, BUT the breakdown of the family unit and the more local neighbourhood is I think the reason why the whole subject is so fraught. We have gone from a society (OK rose tinted glasses here) that looked out for people, to one that only appears to look out for themselves. This means that in terms of housework, kids don't grow up learning to muck in. Childcare as well, sometimes the first time a person holds a baby it is their own. This used not to happen so much. People were often on hand to help out or justto chat to, this doesn't seem to be the case now. The support of other women was a given, now we all bitch about others

joelallie I don't feel awful for you. I you want to sah but can't then that is sad for you. Women are better at looking after babies and children generally. I' mnot prepared to listen to "we're all equal stuff" as a valid argument. We might be, but that doesn't mean we can all do the same jobs fhs. I'm sure there are some exceptions. But a woman is better at childcare than a man. It's instict that is as old as we are as a species. It has been shown using brain scans and all sorts of other controlles and recogu=nised experiments that women posess certain attributes, such as patience and empathy that make them better at childrearing.
I honestly believe that trying to get men to be like women , behave like women is rubbish. They are men and they are different. There are so many emasulated and washy men out there. maybr they enjoy it, but they don't look very manly to me.

It has been shown using brain scans and all sorts of other controlles and recogu=nised experiments that women posess certain attributes, such as patience and empathy that make them better at childrearing.

That may well be the case but don't women deserve recognition for these attributes - whether they use these given skills to nurture their own children or use these skills in a work-place as a nurse, social worker or play worker for example.

And there is nothing inherently feminine about rubbing a duster around the furniture or pushing washing into a washing machine. Men should be embarrassed to admit that they cannot do such tasks well.