Think Carefully Before Opting for Private Education

[PRMum2012]

i am a mum of two (23 months and 3 in august)I am self-employed, part time and married to a lovely architect. We have a great life and two happy kids.

On paper I would say I have not done too badly with my life and my aim is to work full time as soon as possible now my kids are a bit older. If the work was available I would happily work full time now.

Despite setting up my own business I can't help feeling like a failure that I can't afford for my own children, what my parents did for me.... It annoys me that I put so much importance on it ... I am now passionate about finding a decent local primary school for my children so they don't feel the same pressure i do now, when they are older and looking for schools for their kids ....but i'll be honest ......assuming i can afford it i would try and do it from 11 if i can....!!!!...

Hopefully by then, my kids will have an input too and they will be forming their own opinions on the issue.

Depending on mortgage and family support I can't see that it's possible for anyone with two kids earning under £80,000 - £1000,000 + (as a family income) to afford private education anymore, my advice is unless you have a thriving business or two, work as a dr, lawyer or banker.... Forget it.

It's really hard to watch my younger sibling do it for her kids, they are paying for private prep while we cant afford it.... But it really upsets me I feel like this... why can't I just be happy for them and quietly satisfied that I don't need to pay on top of my taxes for my kids education.

For my own primary education i went privately, tried the local school for secondary education but was bullied so moved back to the private system.... I had a mix of private and state during secondary - my second private school was amazing but the second state school I attended for 6th form (my choice) was great too so why is this all having such an impact on what I want for my own kids.

My DH is much more laid back, he went privately all the way through but doesn't place as much value on it as I do/did....I wish I felt the same way but all I feel now is pressure to earn more money so I can pay for them both from 11.

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Tue 30-Apr-13 13:50:23

Why do I need a car when it's quicker to get somewhere on the bus? confused I can't drive anyway (illness)

But that's you !

Where I live there are around 3 buses a day and none back after 6pm. A car is essential.

I think if people are talking about money, the most useful figures re. enough for private ed would be

• income after tax
• mortgage repayments per month and term
• council tax

For many people those add up to an awful lot and what's left goes on food and utility bills, car fuel and clothes.

OP - My income is in the band that you mentioned and we have two DCs in private school. Both our cars are 10 years old so our only major outgoing is a £1k+ pw mortgage.

We bank DP's salary (the plan is to retire early) but the point is that we live on one income and we can afford private. So I am a bit at your

MTSgroupie and I have had this argument before. I personally believe you've got to be on a significant income to easily afford senior day school fees and as for boarding fees we reckon £180 000 + to effortlessly put two through.
Unless you are affording it effortlessly you have to be absolutely convinced that what your getting is better than if you don't pay. This comes down to state choices, what you personally except of education and if you have a child that will thrive in a independent school; some don't.

MrT
I just don't know how you do that!

How much are the school fees in total pa?

How much is your council tax, water rates, utilities, insurance ( contents & buildings, life assurance etc) on top of your £1K a month mortgage? it's not just the mortgage- it's everything else.

And unless you are paying into a pension then your DPs saved salary will be peanuts with the impact of inflation in years to come.

As I said earlier, I think it's meaningless for people to talk money here unless they are absolutely open about their outgoings and term of mortgage etc.

I don't know how MTS is doing it either. We only have one car and a mortgage of similar size.

IMO the cost of private schooling has to be in the region of at least £10K per child per annum. This means pre taxable income of around £35K- £40K for school fees alone.

I don't think there is any point people posting about how they can afford school fees without saying what the fees are- how many children etc- and whether they are also living in debt with huge credit card loans.

bella I'm looking at a more expensive school then you. The really good independent here is just under £6000 a term for day students at senior school. This is £18k just on school fees alone. Surely there are other expenses on top? For two children at that fee, it's more like £35-40k take home salary.

I mean just on schooling. I used this take home salary calculator and it says it's 60k pre-tax on one income.

I know it's a naive calculation. If you then use the left over £20k as the second income, you are only taking home £1300 a month. After mortgage, it's only £300 a month to live. That's just not doable. A second income of £40k would definitely be doable. That'll make the couple having a combined income of £100k.

I went to a decent comprehensive, dh to an upmarket boys grammar school.

We never even considered private - though with many sacrifices we could have afforded it. Our dc go to a state school with specialist bilingual status (English/Scottish Gaelic). You can't, for any money, buy the education they are getting.

I'd rather be spending the money on other things - we're going to Sorrento and Rome in the summer plan to visit Pompeii etc. We pay for music lessons etc outside of school, and it adds up to just a fraction of private education for 3 dc which would be inferior anyway (unless anyone knows of other state schools where children are taught to be totally bilingual?).

Yes of course it would be because I was working on a lower annual fee . You have quoted almost double that. So to afford £40K after tax you'd need to earn pretty near £80K ( given 40% tax etc) to afford fees alone.

Your post is exactly what is wrong with the system. You feel inadequate because you can't send your kids to private school, thereby entering them into the state school lottery, where success cannot be guaranteed bought.

It is utterly bonkers.

By not sending your kids to private school, you are letting them grow up outside the very culture of status and superiority that you are experiencing negatively now. And that is a marvellous thing.

State school isn't a cop out. It isn't saying you aren't trying for your kids. It is just saying that other things are more important than status.

I say all this as a state schooled, two Russell group degree holding, professional know it all.

Don't feel bad. Save your cash for uni, coz BOY are you gonna need it!

Maybe MTSgroupie has private savings or grandparents chipping in.

Yes dogs I find that people are often less than totally honest about what they have coming in when they say they can afford certain things- they may have the 'cushion' of wealthy families or inheritances due in time, and I know of people who have £35K on credit cards .

She I don't think that private ed is about status at all. I once taught in an indy school. the kids there and their parents were as down to earth as any in a state school.

I'm sorry - and I never say this - but do please get a grip!

Fgs, 93% of people are not privately educated. Are you saying that none of them have worthwhile lives?

At least if your children don't go to private school they will hopefully have a less narrow view of what is important in life.

'State school isn't a cop out. It isn't saying you aren't trying for your kids. It is just saying that other things are more important than status. '

My fees are £28k for 2 DCs. This includes bus, trips and lunch.

We last had a 'big' holiday in 2010 and we both drive 10 year old cars. Apart from that, we do the usual eating out, cinema stuff so we aren't exactly huddling around a solitary candle for heat.

If you can't afford private on £80k to £100k then perhaps YOU should list your expenditures for all of MN to see.

In the interest of full disclosure, we bank DP's salary because it is our intention to retire early (Bella - it's not 'peanuts' :) ).

So we have the comfort of knowing that we can spend all of my income and still have money for a rainy day and/or retirement.

MTS I think I'm confused about your £80-100k. Is that your sole salary? Or are we talking about a combined £80-100k income? You say you are banking all of your DH salary and so you are living on only one income?

Yes, I can give you some figures for someone on £80k combined. I take home about £2100 a month. And on your figure of £28k a year, it's £2333 a month. So no I can't pay your school fees and bank my DH's salary. He earns the same as me.

OP if it assuages your guilt bear in mind that the price of Private education has massively risen compared to wages
From lloyds
"The average annual private school fee in 2012 of £11,457 is equivalent to 35% of annual average gross full-time earnings of £33,011; in 2002 the comparable ratio was 27%. With school fees rising by significantly more than the rate of inflation, it has become more difficult for the average earner in many occupations to send their children to private schools.
As a result of school fee inflation, there are several relatively well paid occupations ? such as pharmacists, architects, IT professionals, engineers and scientists ? where someone on the average earnings for that occupation can no longer send their child to private school without assistance from other sources. In 2002, someone employed in these professions, on average earnings, would have been able to afford to send their child to a private school. (Private school fees are deemed to be affordable for an occupation if they represent 25% or less of gross average annual earnings for someone in that occupation.)
Parents earning the average salary in occupations such as production managers, accountants, senior police officers and pilots face the smallest financial burden in sending their child to a fee paying school with the average annual private school fee representing around a fifth (19%) of their annual average gross earnings."
We sort of fell into it with DS1, now 19, and have ended up with up to 3 dc at a cost of 6200-6500 per term which is a massive undertaking. Luckily DS1 now at uni but am counting down those two six form years for ds2!
(yes we do have crappy old cars :) )

OneLittle - the £80-£100k is my income.

I wonder if those praising state education live in or near London.

Speaking as someone who lives in the outskirts of London, the choice to send my child to a private primary was made for me when he was allocated to the worst primary school in the area - parents fighting at the school gate type, racist families who made the lives of any minority kids hell. And of course we live here because the crazy prices in London quickly limit choice of where you can buy and I was SICK of renting.

It always makes me laugh when parents who live in the million pound homes near excellent state schools smugly inform me of how happy they are with state eduction and how inclusive they are - forgetting that the make up of their primary schools are actually more exclusive with children from similar backgrounds. My DS private school has more of an ethnic and financial mix than any of these schools.

And by my calculation even with what I will pay for private education over 6 yrs with one child - school fees is 8k which is £56k over 7 years - I could still not afford to live in the catchment area of these state schools so am better off at least trying to minimise the effect of where we live by sending my child to private school.

The only secondary school in the town where these kids will end up has been in special measures for as long as one can remember and guess the constantly shattered glass of the bus-stop near the school is a testimony to the atmosphere in the school.

We will try for grammar schools and hope he gets in if not we will continue down the private route. These are the real choices people have to make and it is not about being Mr Moneybags but trying to do the best for our kids. Sometimes private is the only or indeed the cheaper option over the long-term.

Private education is very very expensive. Was chatting to a father at school the other day whose parents put him and his sister through easily but it wasn't going to be possible for him to do the same for his children.

That said there are a lot of grandparents helping out and also a lot of children leave school because situations change - I suspect a lot more nowadays. Yet our school still has a big waiting list.

So when you say "If you cant afford private on 80k to 100k then perhaps YOU should list your expenditures for all of MN to see", you mean 80k to 100k is one person's income?

MrT
I still find those figures slightly odd.

£80K gross ( and let's be honest- another 20K makes a big difference, so which is your real income?) is given as

£4400 per month after tax.
School fees of £28K are £2333 a month.

Which leaves you just over £2K a month, or £500 a week for everything else. I'd imagine the average food bill for a family of 4 is around £150 a week, or £600 a month. S out of the remaining £350 you would have to pay for council tax, ( ours is around £150 a month), gas/ electric (ours was over £150 a month) each month, car fuel, car repairs ( we have one 10 yr old car plus a company car) food, insurances, and essential clothes.

It doesn't add up to being in the black.

If your real income is £100K AND you dip into your wife's earnings too then that makes the difference perhaps.