What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

So does mine - a separate company who use our premises for before and after school care, and also holiday clubs.

Separate from teachers and their holidays.

Maybe schools could provide childcare facilities during the holidays with child care workers and not teachers. Then the teachers still get their holidays and dc of sahp's and those not wishing to use the service would enjoy a holiday.

I don't think its fair to expect teachers to be child minders, school is education and dc need a holiday.

I'm certainly not saying that teachers should be child minders over the holidays. What I am talking about is a radical overhaul of the way that schools are managed such that we're not working on timings that were set up by medieval harvesting and that has no academic or economic merit but in a way that suits children and parents and the general good. At the very least school buildings should be used to provide affordable childcare but I think we should be looking at summer schools, staggered terms etc. It's a crime that some of these buildings, having cost millions, sometimes with extraordinary ICT and sporting facilities are left empty for 13 weeks of the year.

It's also shocking that some kids who are failing academically are left completely unsupervised over the summer holidays when there's a real opportunity to provide desperately needed intervention.

I certainly think buildings and facilities should be used, but feel that dc should be able to do fun and different activities during hols.

Children are like anyone else-they need a break-it is very obvious by the end of a term.

fivecandles - your post @15.07 hits the nail on the head about 'teachers position themselves in opposition to working parents'. You are a teacher and I wish more teachers would at least be willing to discuss the issues.

The World has changed so much in the last 50 years with far more women working, far more single parent families and yet the school year and the teaching profession rigidly sticks to that old World view.

Much of the 'teachers get such long holidays' commentary on MN is not a personal dig at teachers but a statement about the reality clash of the World of 24/7 business and the 8.30 - 4.00 and 9 months a year school year.

I don't expect teachers to work more hours for no pay. I certainly wouldn't. However, the knee jerk refusal to change anything to fit in with the modern World places a huge strain on parents. Lets face it teachers almost never have to worry about covering childcare in holidays. Teaching unions could garner a huge amount of support from parents by agreeing some change to a 'normal' working year in return for a 'normal' pay and benefits package similar to that in business or public sector.

Given that many young graduates are struggling to get any job the days of demanding a guaranteed pay rise every year, a job for life and 13 weeks holiday really are numbered.

If I might forward a personal note. My children go to a goo provincial private schoool and it is very obvious that some teachers do go the extra mile, are thoroughly professional and loved by parents and children alike and deserve any perks that the job provides. Some teachers though are clockwatching jobsworths that step out of the door at 4 pm prompt and never appear in after school care, after school clubs or holiday clubs Those are the teachers that really rile the parents and they annoy the other teachers too and I know that because a teacher told me that.

Teachers are not saints. They do a hard job very profesionally in many cases but the teaching unions and a hardcore of teachers just don't get it and I wish other teachers would 'call them out'. It is time for a proper discussion.

'good provincial private school'

Teachers are not paid for holidays. As a supply teacher I got more because I didn't get holidays-if I came off supply and got a contract it came down because it was the same money but covered the holidays.
Of course child care is the stumbling block-high quality child care doesn't come cheap-someone has to pay for it.
Quite simply if you take away teacher's holidays (which as someone has pointed out are not just 13 weeks of freedom) then you will lose a lot more teachers than are currently lost.

Sorry was interrupted. Activities in "summer school" could be sports, art and drama based. Staff from schools could do those for extra pay, or outside providers could also contribute. Those school buildings with great facilities could be used. Every school building would not be needed.

Teachers are not robots-they can't be in school at 7.30am each morning, leave at 5 or 6 pm-eat, work to bedtime, and use either Sat or Sun for school work and then have the holiday taken away!! Sometimes I think they may as well live in a cupboard at school!

Staff from schools could do those for extra pay, or outside providers could also contribute. Those school buildings with great facilities could be used. Every school building would not be needed.

Great idea but staff wouldn't want to do it. Outside providers would- but it would cost-it would have to.

As a teacher I would do it-but the pay would have to be very attractive-I wouldn't do it for peanuts!

Agree Morebeta. Teachers DO have a lot to lose here and I think their personal investment in the issue blinds them to the very convincing arguments for change.

Teachers work hard and many do work hard over the holidays (it's what I'm doing now) but I don't think bleating on about how hard done by they are and how they are unpaid for the holidays (in which case it's really a pretty decent salary isn't it?) doesn't do them any favours. They need to wake up to the fact that it's the 21st century and we're going to be rapidly overtaken by countries who ARE prepared to move with the times.

fivecandles - I dont know the payscale of teachers very well but I know the university lecturer payscale quite intimately.

At the top end of the Senior Lecturer payscale its roughly £50k per annum. However, the reality is that the job is 6 months of actual work in lecturing and admin and the rest of the time is yours. So annualised, the pay is not bad at all once you get established and its pretty secure and you go up 1 scale point guaranteed per year. If you work harder and publish research you go up faster. There are plenty of older university lecturers who regard it as a teaching job and barely work outside the minimum required.

Quoting a starting salary for teachers is not really a fair comparison. How much does a well established 45 yr old Head of Dept in a secondary school get paid? That presumably is more like a full time 9 -5 job with some management responsibility?

It isn't a maybe-teachers will leave. You find ex teachers everywhere and they all say the same-they love the classroom they don't like the rest-they go.

But quite honestly there's no teacher shortage at the moment (except for in particular areas and particular subjects which isn't the same as a national crisis). In fact, many NQTs are struggling to get jobs and it's now really competitive to even begin a training course.

Anyway, I'm not arguing for a complete slashing of school holidays - just a better balance. Personally, I'd willingly sacrifice some holiday for more non contact time and more time for research/updating skills and management.

There are also many teachers who'd willingly work during holidays for extra pay (just look at how many will do examining for peanuts) especially at the beginnings of their careers.

But quite honestly there's no teacher shortage at the moment

No - but there is a massive recruitment issue.

How has this come back round to a problem for teachers again? I thought we had established that holiday clubs would be the way to go.

Use our premises - use my classroom, if you like. But don't use me - your childcare issues are none of my affair, except as an issue which the population as a whole might like to discuss.

No recruitment, retention.

NOT

Bloody hell, damn keyboard.

What is beginning to rile me about this whole thread is that A) this is hardly a new or ground-breaking argument- I remember it coming up when I was a child- the myth that holidays were organised around medieval harvest times etc etc, and B) the inplication that somehow it's teachers who are preventing changes from taking place. Does anyone HONESTLY think teachers have that much power? If any government in the last 60 or so years had wanted to change school term times, it would have happened. This is not something that successive education ministers have tried to push through only to be thwarted at the final hurdle by pesky protesting teachers.

Good point, well made, EvilTwins.

'your childcare issues are none of my affair, except as an issue which the population as a whole might like to discuss.'

Strange that you see teachers as somehow not part of that 'population'. In my view, an instrumental part.

There's a debate to be had here and teachers are part of it. For example, one approach which would enable teachers to keep their holidays and might mean that they and parents could take advantage of cheaper holidays (often a bugbear on this site), would be to stagger terms such that school is open all year around with a rota of 6 week courses including an optional leisure/creative or catch up 6 weeks for kids whose parents can't take more than the statuary holiday entitlement each year.

'This is not something that successive education ministers have tried to push through only to be thwarted at the final hurdle by pesky protesting teachers.'

But only because there'd be a revolt. Anyway, Gove did suggest this very recently and was met with a predictable outcry. I detest almost every proposal Gove has come up with I hasten to add but this is a debate that needs to happen.

I am a part of the general population as much as my GP is, or a taxi driver.

It's about as relevant to ask them to look after your child in their holidays as it is to ask me.

I am not unconcerned - but it is not my concern. I am responsible for arranging and paying for my own child's care, not anyone else's.