What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

I'm not sure how much of a problem retention is either Feenie. I can see how a govt minister might think that if teachers aren't committed or resilient enough then good riddance and why not replace them with more enthusiastic (and cheaper) people. There are some schools and colleges that try to recruit only or mainly NQTs.

But keeping them is a problem. I went to a meeting where we were told that we were a dying breed (I was an older teacher)because people would no longer come in at 21yrs and carry on to retirement-they now chop and change-come in later in life, start early and move on-have long breaks. Job shares are very common, especially with mothers of young children and those close to retirement.
I am not teaching any more-I wanted a life. I come across them everywhere-e.g. went to the wool shop, owned by an ex teacher-she didn't like the work load, talked to a charity organiser yesterday (on the education side) an ex teacher, spoke to a friend's DD who is a student working in a supermarket-lots of ex teachers there they just want to go to work and go home and leave it. Lots are TAs because they can have break and lunch and go home at the end of the day without work.
Teachers (primary anyway) are stressed. For every hour in the classroom you need one out and that doesn't include the extras like parent's evenings, report writing, school plays etc. There are not enough hours in the day.
It isn't a 'perhaps'-you take away holidays and they will leave in greater numbers than are doing so already. It is very sad because most love the classroom, it just happens to be less than half the job these days.

Well I think it should be our concern as teachers over and above the ordinary population, Feenie for all sorts of reasons. We should be involved in at least exploring options for structuring the school year for academic, social and economic merits rather than the current system which is based on medieval harvests. We should be at the forefront of that debate because the education and welfare of our children is part of our vocation and we must also take responsibility for the way in which taxpayers money is spent in providing for the education and welfare of our students.

Feenie - taxis and GPs do not disappear from providing a service en masse for 13 weeks a year though. If they did, there would be an outcry.

Mind you, it is getting bad enough in the NHS that weekends and school holidays are known to be very bad times to need the care of a hospital.

I think it reflects really badly on teachers if they wish to preserve the holidays as they are purely out of self-interest when there are good academic, social and economic reasons for changing them.

I'm not sure how much of a problem retention is either Feenie.

I think 50% of the profession leaving within five years, citing workload as the main issue, is a huge problem.

Feenie - taxis and GPs do not disappear from providing a service en masse for 13 weeks a year though. If they did, there would be an outcry.

So pay me.

There are some schools and colleges that try to recruit only or mainly NQTs.

True-they do this because of cost-no other reason. Do you really want schools full of NQTs?
There may not be a shortage but I know full well I can get a job any time I want in teaching. Not a contract, but I only have to go to a few schools and ask about supply work and next time they have an emergency they would phone. I do a good job so they would start using me. It has never failed in the past and I have got full term jobs from it or job shares-it wouldn't fail now. I have never belonged to an agency.

I never have an academic problem with the holidays, fivecandles - it never takes long to get my children back up to speed.

Maybe it's those 17 weeks that are your main issue acdemically?

'For every hour in the classroom you need one out and that doesn't include the extras like parent's evenings, report writing, school plays etc. There are not enough hours in the day.'

Which frankly is a good argument for change. Why on earth pack everything into 5-8 week half-terms when you could spread things out?

What about introducing a Wednesday afternoon leisure/sport/catch up slot (as in France)for pupils where teachers do administrative work/CPD in return for a week's holiday over summer? I think this would benefit everyone.

In the paper today it said that doctors were not willing to work weekends for the NHS to suit middle class workers. I am not surprised. If I was a doctor I wouldn't want regular weekend work.

'I think 50% of the profession leaving within five years, citing workload as the main issue, is a huge problem.'

But would it be perceived as a problem by government ministers or even head teachers if it means you get to replace the tired and fed up with more enthusiastic and cheaper teachers?

I also repeat my argument that if the workload were spread out more effectively then teachers would get less stressed. I don't think it's particularly healthy or helpful for anyone to work like a nutter for 6 weeks and then have 6 weeks of doing relatively little.

fivecandles -how on earth would that work?! If you were in school for more weeks you have more hours in the classroom and you need the hours to plan and mark it. Are you saying that we spread it out and have 3 hours a day in school so that we can have more days?

How about you knock your 17 weeks down to 13 like the state sector? That would surely appease lots of parents and solve some of the issues you've raised. Might help your academic issue also.

Good grief! If only! You haven't the least understanding of what is done in the holidays.

it means you get to replace the tired and fed up with more enthusiastic and cheaper teachers?

Pay them little-burn them out and replace. I think that the country would get the schools they deserved with that system!

'True-they do this because of cost-no other reason. '

Actually I read a really interesting article about a school that did this for all sorts of good academic reasons and achieved brilliant results because of it. The savings they made on experienced teachers enabled them to have incredibly small class sizes and they were able to train teachers really effectively because they got them fresh and enthusiastic. I'll see if I can find the article.

I'd much rather my own kids were taught by keen NQTs than teacher counting the days to their retirement.

'If I was a doctor I wouldn't want regular weekend work.'

And bugger the people who are unfortunate enough to get ill over the weekend??

Sheesh!

Until 67? Since that's a LOT of days, I doubt that happens.

The only answer is give you a class for a term fivecandles and then ask your opinion! I will leave you to the debate.

Ooh yes, you could do it in your spare 4 weeks, fivecandles.

'f you were in school for more weeks you have more hours in the classroom and you need the hours to plan and mark it. Are you saying that we spread it out and have 3 hours a day in school so that we can have more days?'

Duh! Each teacher has less contact time and more time for planning, admin and CPD. And if you have more time to deliver the curriculum you would also have more time to intervene and work with individual pupils who are failing to keep up.

Honestly, people are so used to the system as it is that they cannot envisage any other ways for it to work. A business would simply fail if it worked like that.

And bugger the people who are unfortunate enough to get ill over the weekend??

I think they are quite happy to see and treat emergencies-but they are saying 'bugger the ones who are not'-I would. (they are saying it loud and clear in the Times today)

Feenie I have worked in the state sector for 15 years before defecting! By and large the kids and parents who are most disadvantaged by longer holidays are the poorest. It's all very well if you can afford good quality childcare or take your kids on educational holidays or pay for a nanny!