What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

It's a great deal, especially for those in areas where pay in the private sector is low. If you think you can do better moving into the private sector then good luck to you.

Are you reading the same thread as me?

I'm sure that some teachers take on extra work in the holidays, eg exam marking or teaching English to foreigners

Oh, you're sure, are you? I don't know any.

I don't know any either. I know a couple of ex teachers (left to start families) who mark exams but no current teachers.

No one's said it's a poor deal. This thread is about holidays. We get good holidays (no one is denying that) but we are not paid for them.

Come and join us, dromedary!

How many threads do there have to be before posters understand that teachers are not paid for their holidays?

I suppose the issue is whether, in reality, this distinction matters.

In the same way that, as a management trainee my contracted hours were 8.45 to 5 and in reality I worked the hours needed for the job, as a teacher my contracted days might be 195 and hours supposed to be something in particular, but in reality I work the hours needed to do the job.

So if, for example, it was suggested that I should work 4.5 days per week during term time so that those additional 'half days' could be used for me to help run holiday clubs for Pupil premium cildren during a long holiday, I wouldn't see myself as being asked to 'wrok when i shouldn't be working, it would just be a rearrangement of my working hours across the year IYSWIM?

Again, making the comparison to industry, I see myself as having an 'annualised hours' contract - I receive equal pay each month but work unequal hours to reflect demand. If my employer and I chose by mutual agreement to vary those unequal hours in response to a demand for my work in holiday times and a lessening of my timetable in term time, that does not seem to me to be any more unreasonable than e.g. a hot water bottle manuufacturer requiring his shoft workrs to put in more time over a clod snap.

As has been pointed out a number of times, childcare problems could be eased by greater flexibility across the working world, not just by teachers plugging all the gaps.

I can see your point, teacherwith2kids. So long as parents don't start objecting that there's no continuity in the classroom because I'm out for 0.5 day for PPA and 0.5 day because I only work 4.5 days.

Would you envisage holiday clubs only being funded for Pupil Premium children?

I wonder why not? The work is there for the taking. My former neighbour taught biology and marked A level papers for decades - a useful additional form of income. My brother in law (a secondary school teacher) has done a fair bit of teaching English as a foreign language during the summer. It is also possible to have foreigners staying with you over the summer, if you have a spare room, and teach them one to one.

For those teachers who think they are very badly paid and can just transfer into the private sector anytime they like because they "have a degree" - get real.

wherearemy - it's not very helpful to say - teachers like their hours the way they are, thanks, so EVERYBODY ELSE should become more flexible.

I think my pay is fine. I like teaching, as do (I believe) all of the teachers who have commented here. I do resent my pay and conditions being up for debate in a way that no other profession is, and also seen as a quick and easy scapegoat for all of society's problems.

This issue of whether or not a teacher gets paid for the work they do in the holiday seems to be the major road block here to changing the school year.

It seems to me that everyone agrees that teachers get their pay spread out over 12 months. Everyone also seems to agree and accept that most teachers do lesson planning and training in the school holidays which is essential to their job.

To most people in the normal business world it sounds like you get paid for doing a full time job - some of whuch you actually do at school and some of it at home. Actually quite a lot of people in business work that way now.

Teachers though on this thread are clinging like limpets to a rock to the red line in their contract that says they are only paid for 195 days work - while at the same time complaining that they do work more days than that. Some of the teachers on this thread though insist that they do not do any work in the holiday as that is unpaid and their time.

It seems like some teachers do work like a professional would but other frankly just regard it as a part time job and stick rigidly to the 195 days to fit round their personal oves. Those are the teachers which I pointed out up thread annoy parents and other more profesisonal teachers resent.

There is no consistency and no wonder parents do not understand it. After reading this thread I have less understanding of teachers working hours than at the start of the thread.

For those teachers who think they are very badly paid and can just transfer into the private sector anytime they like because they "have a degree" - get real

YOU get real - no one has said that, but it's the second time you have - where on EARTH are you getting that point from? Read the thread fgs before you make an even bigger idiot of yourself

MoreBeta
"This issue of whether or not a teacher gets paid for the work they do in the holiday seems to be the major road block here to changing the school year."

There is no issue, teachers do not get paid for their holidays.

I am happy for the school year to change if it is done in such a way to improve pupils progress.

I don't think in general teachers think they are badly paid, they are simply aware that part of the deal in teaching is lower pay in return for other benefits, primarily the holidays. In my experience most professionals have a tendency to compare their pay to the top ranks of other professions (ie doctors comparing themselves to barristers rather than high street solicitors).

Whether or not some teachers choose to supplement their income is a personal matter. All the teachers I knew in the States who were involved in holiday clubs were young and childless. they did it partly to build up savings and partly because it was fun. Parents on the other hand tended to spend the holidays with their children not surprisingly, as this is one of the most significant reasons why people (especially women) choose teaching in the first pace.

I think what this thread has summed up is that childcare during the holidays is a complex issue - one that requires the cooperation of parents, the government, employers and schools to solve. I do not think that simply shoving children into school for longer so their parents can work is an answer, it requires give and take from all concerned. Maybe schools should offer more in the holidays, maybe employers should allow more working from home, maybe the government should offer incentives, maybe parents should cut down on hours in the holidays. The whole way we work would need to change, not just the schools. I am prepared to engage in debate, but every time teachers get told to 'get real' and the like I feel less inclined to do so.

i guess i must be one of those unprofessional teachers who regards it as a part time job - i don't do any work in the summer hols, and my workload during the others is highly variable.

i will lose 4 exam classes this year by the end of may, leaving me a pretty empty timetable in which to reevaluate schemes of work, undertake training, forward plan for the coming year, etc. etc. this time will make up almost half of my timetable.

consequently i don't need to work in the summer.

my job is not like an office job where everything happens at more or less the same pace.

you might as well holler at firefighters for not being sufficiently productive during the hours of 9-6

Dromedary I worked in the private sector for years and was very very successful, I have been a teacher for a relatively short period and therefore I probably could get a private sector job as easily as most other people - not just because I have a degree and other further qualifications.

I think I am the only teacher on this thread to say that I will probably not be a teacher forever.

I have done extra work, mainly marking and have been paid enough to go one holiday with the money.

I do think teaching is a good deal and the pay off if you want to travel and or have a family is great. I think we should spend more time shouting from the rooftops about the perks of teaching rather than hiding them - it suggests that we do not think that we are worthy of them. We might have more people entering and staying in teaching if we put more emphasis on the positive .

When I told my former colleagues that I was going into teaching they thought I was mad, they perceived it as a dead end job, underpaid and full of moaning hard done by types who have mediocre qualifications. I notice that the types if children who want to go into teaching tend to be your B grade kids, not the A* ones because teaching is seen as a second rate profession. We need to change that. Paying teachers less or the same for more hours will not do that.

tiggytape

I know that it wasn't you that mentioned this but as you put figures to it.

the teacher is still required to do the 3 hrs marking so with the extra school club/childcare is now giving up 36 hours for free.

Doesn't seem like good sense to me

The weird thing is that by insisting you only get paid for 195 days everyone then annualises that and over the nomal 235 day working year and suddenly your pay looks rather good compared to say a university lecturer with a much higher degree.

If you added in the unpaid days you actually work you dont look so well paid.

Teachers really are not helping their own cause here. You need to formalise your hours so they are comparable with normal full time jobs and then people would understand how much work you really do. If you keep insisting you only work 195 days then parents will keep saying teachers get 13 weeks holiday and very good pay with no childcare worries. They will keep resenting you and eventualy change will be forced on you - most likely because big business will demand it. You will definitely lose out.

Feenie - I read what is now a very long thread before posting again and someone said if teachers' hols were shortened they would leave for the private sector - as they did have degrees.
Degrees are two a penny these days, and it is very difficult to get any kind of job without previous direct experience.

Whereare - your pay and conditions are more up for debate than others' because you are paid by the state (aka taxpayer).

I would cheerfully discuss doctors' pay, which I think is totally outrageous.

You can get me to run childcare clubs but in order for that to happen you are either going to need to pay me more or reduce my teaching contact time. If you reduce my teaching contact time you will need to still pay another teacher.

It would make much more sense to get other people to run the clubs - which I think are a good idea - because it will probably be cheaper - unless of course you have a specific issue with teachers and just want them to work harder.

I also think that if holidays clubs are going to work they need to be very different from school. For financial reasons, the premises may have to stay the same so change the working style and the staff. This way you are giving the children a rich experience, a chance to work with other adults rather than more of the same. Unless of course you have a specific issue with teachers and just want them to work harder.

Perhaps we could say in the future that we expect people who want to teach to have spent time working in one of these clubs. This will give people an experience of working with young people. I have worked with too many trainee teachers who seem to have no idea of how to work with young people and some who even seem terrified of them. This could improve teacher retention and save us spending money training teachers who either never become teachers or who don't last. It is quite hard to get good experience working with children as schools have become much stricter bout letting any Tom, Dick or Henrietta come in. Sounds like a good idea to me, unless if course you have a specific issue with teachers and just want to make them work harder.

I also think that as a teacher you get so used to running a classroom and being quite formal that perhaps you aren't the best person to run something that is supposed to be fun. Whenever we get in outside speakers or people to run activities I notice that they often do things that I wouldn't do as a trained teacher and sometimes I am doing th sucking through teeth thing. But often that is the point, to give the children a different kind of experience and usually they react with huge positivity and enthusiasm. Some of our young people need to access as many positive adult role models as possible. Again sounds like a good idea unless of course you have a specific issue with teachers and just want to make them work harder.

I'm sure that some teachers take on extra work in the holidays, eg exam marking or teaching English to foreigners

I don't know any. They tend to leave teaching and do it, or retire and do it.

My DH has a high powered job in private industry and my working hours have caused arguments.
e.g. I was doing a morning's only job and my pattern was to get into school by 7.30am-teach through to lunchtime. Work through at school until the afternoon started and then go home, have a quick lunch and continue until about 4pm. He was home one day and said 'what are you doing with your afternoon'? I looked at him as if he was bonkers and said 'school work'. (it did at least keep evenings and weekends free).
He gave up arguing-just used to roll his eyes!
I was getting paid on supply rate for the actual hours in the classroom on that job. The rate goes right down if you double the hours.
He never understood that I couldn't teach properly without good planning and organisation and since that particular class were what you would call 'challenging', you had to be on top of it all the time.
When I did a full time job he found me very snappy and bad tempered! (without evenings and a whole weekend)