What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

195 days - including INSET - why would you want it excluded?

195 days - including INSET - why would you want it excluded?

I agree, Feenie. Why do so many people see ensuring teachers are kept bang up to date with current legislation and good practice as a bad thing or even an annoyance?

Next we'll have the suggestion than teachers take their inset days taken out of their holidays AGAIN.

A relatively generous final salary pension scheme would seem like a fairly obvious 'perk' of a teaching career and very good job security.

Job security is nowhere near what it used to be, fivecandles, for lots of teachers.

It's still pretty good relative to most other jobs.

The OP questions about a need for holidays...
Well, yes the children need a break. I'm sure every teacher and parent will have noticed that children get tired towards the end of a term and are not learning as much as at the start.
The summer is too long. I wouldn't object to a 4 week summer holiday and the remaining weeks spread out to give the kids breaks between half terms.

To address the issues in the last few posts...

I'd like to point out that I spend many days in the holidays working; planning/finding resources/making resources etc etc. I also spend at least 2 weeks of the summer hols in my classroom getting ready for the new school year. If there were less holidays I wouldn't do as much of this, therefore impacting my pupils.

I do not get as many holidays as the children and I consider these as paid working days. If you take an average teacher's salary and divide it to include these days alongside the 195 mandatory days, it is a lot less than you might think.

I would also like to point out that IMO my salary and the holidays I get are justified as I worked very hard to get my degree and the job I have today, I continually work hard to remain a good teacher (professional development never stops).

I haven't read the whole thread, but fivecandles, it would be worth remembering that the current final salary scheme is being phased out after this year. The new/current mandatory scheme has an increase in contribution, which in today?s climate has an overall effect on day to day living.
Everyone can pay into a pension scheme, the teachers? pension scheme, although good, is being changed to be more in line with other workers. However, support staff do not have such an advantage.
Maybe there should be a thread entitled, 'Does anyone think teachers are worth it?' or 'Why is teaching considered less than other professions?'
Sigh. Sorry, just getting a little fed up with teacher bashing.

Teaching starting salary £21,588.
Divided by 195 days of school = £110.70 per day.
Divided by 30 children = £3.69 per day paid for your child.

I don't think £3.69 is much for your child's education when you compare it to your childminding fees per child, do you?

SmileAndPeopleSmileWithYou,

Schools have buildings that need to be maintained. There are other costs like computers, books, training. The average teacher is paid 30K. A newly qualified teacher only does 80% timetable and there are the costs of mentoring and ongoing training. Employing an NQT is far from a cheap option. Schools need to pay for teaching assistants, admin staff, dinner ladies, cleaners, caretakers, libranians, IT support, welfare and many other external services etc.

Cost of having a child in school for 195 days is around 5K or roughly £25 a day. This is not that much cheaper than a holiday club. The amount spent on individual children vary as some children will have one to one LSA support.

People who work in schools are actually paid for 43 weeks of the year as they are entitled to 4 weeks pay.

People who work in schools are actually paid for 43 weeks of the year as they are entitled to 4 weeks pay.

Not sure about that, ReallyTired.

Certainly I've never seen anything like that referred to in pay and conditions.

ReallyTired is right (I was on preschool committee). They get same statuatory 4 weeks holiday time as other employees. Even dinner ladies get sick pay & holiday pay. Bank staff don't, though. And it's customary to calculate the pay so as include a paycheck every month, even in August. This helps with cash flow sometimes, too.

When I've applied for school jobs recently, the admin people are expected to work termtime+2 weeks, so that's 41 weeks of work. they get 4 weeks of paid holiday in addition.

I think there are lots of perks to teaching which make up for the lower pay , in comparison to other jobs.

Long holidays- I refuse to work in my holidays and that has not stopped me moving up the ranks swiftly

If I want to 3-4 days a week I can be out of the door by 4pm

Flexible working around children

I get paid to spend the day talking about things that interest me to people who interest me

Relatively easy career progression

Usually have job security

Great pension

Most days I go home in a high feeling immensely satisfied

ReallyTired is right (I was on preschool committee). They get same statuatory 4 weeks holiday time as other employees.

Can anyone provide evidence for this please?

Especially since holiday pay is not referred to anywhere in our pay and conditions.

lljkk I am on the Resources Committee of our governing body and have never seen the 4 weeks referred to - perhaps you are confusing being paid a salary in the holidays with being paid a salary for the holidays.

Support staff get paid for 43 weeks a year, maybe that is what you are thinking of?

I don't think teachers help their case when they position themselves in opposition to working parents (especially odd when so many teachers are working parents). It IS the case that school holidays make life very difficult for working parents and it's just not good enough to say that's tough or you shouldn't have had children then or anything equally unhelpful and unsympathetic. If parents are not able to work because of the cost or difficulty of school holidays or children are not being properly cared for during the holiday then that's not just a problem for the parents concerned is it? It very soon becomes a social and economic problem. Of course, there are potentially real benefits for teachers and many children and many parents of long holidays but there are also real problems and it does no one any favours to dismiss this. There are lots of very good economic and social reasons to change the structure of the school year or at least change the way schools operate to try and address this and to make better use of school buildings and expertise which by and large lies fallow (at great cost) for 13 weeks each year.

And I am a teacher so, personally, would have a lot to lose if this happened but that doesn't stop me understanding that there are good (academic, social and economic) reasons for change.

I don't see my childcare issues as a problem for my child's teachers - it's my concern and my dh's (also a teacher).

I am willing to express a concern on a social and economic level, however - but as you point out, so should everyone.

Don't you teach in the private sector, fivecandles? Your 17 weeks really would be a lot to lose then, wouldn't it?

I love my job but one of the main reasons I do it is because of the holidays. If they reduced them I would go back to my previous career , work similar hours but get paid lots more.

'I don't see my childcare issues as a problem for my child's teachers - it's my concern and my dh's (also a teacher).'

I think childcare is a social responsibility like education and health. Most of us will have children and it is in all of our interest that children are well cared for.

I don't understand why people sit in their houses tackling problems on an individual level and somehow blaming others for struggling or failing to cope when these problems should be dealt with collectively.

You also may feel differently about childcare if you worked in business or medicine (as I'm sure I would).

It's also ridiculous that in the 21st century when we've made so much progress in terms of women's rights, it's often childcare which proves the ultimate stumbling block and is usually the reason for the continued pay and promotion gap between the sexes.

A social responsibility - exactly. But not a automatic responsibility for teachers. It's a strange joining of dots there that I object to. Childcare to me has nothing to do with my qualification.

Yep. Recently moved into private sector. At least my school has the good sense to run its own holiday club though!