What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

fivecandles you keep talking about taking 6 weeks holiday

can you please explain whether support staff will be paid fir the extra 7 weeks of work- if so, where will the money to fund this come from

if no, can you explain how you will get people on board with such a dramatic increase in workload with no extra money - work 20% more, keep making £15k pa

France has colonie de vacannce for its children during the long school break. Often the colonie de vacance is subsidised by the state so that children from low income families can do something constructive.

Colonie de Vacancce is not extra school and the children have a choice what they do. Why don't we adopt the french model rather than having more school?

"The problem is solved if we have summer camps and pay international students flight, board & lodging and pocket money. Who will pay it? "

International students who want to learn English might be happy to work like Au pairs in return for board and lodging and some pocket money. The only problem is where you would house the international students. Prehaps posh boarding schools could lend out their facilities in return for keeping their charitable status. Most state schools do not have the facilties to organise a really good sports camp.

My DS had a wonderful summer working with DCs abroad on summer camps for board & lodging, return travel and pocket money. However the camps were not free. I'm not sure which country you think pays for DCs to have an adventurous summer.
There seems to be a view that once you have children the world owes you a living. I think that if the idea was mooted that parents should get free child care over holidays then the childless would have a lot to say!! (and not pleasant)

It seems the only way to provide it is for teachers to work their holidays for no extra money-not something that will happen!

chibi, I have already said that many support staff e.g. TAs get paid pro rata. If they worked more hours they would get more money, obviously.

Some support staff already work all year around e.g. caretakers who maintain the school at great cost to the taxpayers regardless of how many people (if any) are there to use it.

So basically children of the very rich and children of the unemployed get a summer holiday and every one else ( dare I use the phrase the squeezed middle) stays in school.

I have no issue with holiday activities being run in schools for school children, at my own school we run lots of such activities and my children have attended them. I just have an issue with it being linked so closely to teachers. If the odd teacher wants to offer their services - and it would IMO be the odd teacher- that is fine but do not present it as something that is closely linked with teachers .

I also would like to know where the money comes from . When my children attend summer camp style things in the local secondary schools, it costs around £25 a day. As you seem to think this would be used by so many parents that could be £25k worth of child are a day being given away. ( My school has 1500 student so assuming that 2\3 take up the offer) .

I have a responsibility for behaviour at my school, I will not be choosing to work an extra six weeks for no pay. On a daily basis in my job, I am working with very challenging parents, social workers, mental health professionals. Thinking about the pastoral team that I work with, they mostly have young families and so would not want to work over the optional six weeks. They tend to be well paid so even if you offered them more money they probably would ot come in. I would imagine that many of the very challenging families that I work with will not be keeping their children at home for six weeks, so they will be coming into school. There will be a six week block when these families will not have access to the senior member of staff that they are used to working with. More importantly these rather vulnerable children will also have to get used to a different pastoral head, possibly a different form tutor and subject teachers. It is not a huge issue, when you take on board the fact that you are quite graciously giviing away millions of pounds worth of free childcare but as someone who specializes in pastoral care and child protection it would worry me.

I do think that you have a point about very vulnerable children being at home for six weeks in very dire circumstances and I think that some kind of summer camp would be great for them . However I think it would be most valuable if they were to experience something completely different from school , to broaden their horizons rather than give them the same old thing but with unpredictable staffing.

'Colonie de Vacancce is not extra school and the children have a choice what they do. Why don't we adopt the french model rather than having more school?
'

Er, that is what I've suggested. Many times.

Children would be able to choose from a range of options from computer programming to football to drama and probably more than one at a time. Children who have fallen behind could also receive extra tuition one to one or in small groups for some of this time.

I agree with Aris.

No problem with using school facilities but I don't like the close link to teachers. Why would I put my own kids ins holiday club whilst I look after someone else's for no extra money?

'I think that if the idea was mooted that parents should get free child care over holidays then the childless would have a lot to say!! (and not pleasant) '

Well, you know, some people are just entirely self concerned and there's not much you can do about that. No doubt that there are also some people who object to paying their taxes for heart surgery on the grounds that their hearts are perfectly fine, thanks.

We have a taxation system for the good of society and not because we personally stand to get back every penny we give.

'So basically children of the very rich and children of the unemployed get a summer holiday and every one else ( dare I use the phrase the squeezed middle) stays in school.'

Er, no.

For a start, you take the 6 weeks when it suits you and not just over summer.

It's also rather bizarre to imagine that the rich can take a 6 week holiday.

The richest people I know need quality childcare as much as anyone because they have jobs that are just not put downable.

But just because you're effectively 'in school' does not mean you're not enjoying yourself for 6 weeks of the year a la French system or US summer camps.

Daily Mail would have a field day.

But it's not going to happen anyway, so there's nothing to worry about.

Arisbottle, it would not necessariyl be teachers running these leisure activities as I've explained. It would be a combination of coaches, TAs, and teachers (who would do it as part of their teaching hours).

Hmm

"'I think that if the idea was mooted that parents should get free child care over holidays then the childless would have a lot to say!!"

And if that childcare meant

• More parents of school age children were able to work, rather than claiming unemployment benefit
• Fewer children left school without qualifications (with the resulting social cost)
• Less petty crime was committed
• Less antisocial behaviour during school holidays

?

Do you REALLY think we should only do things of which the Dily Mail approves?

REALLY??

How bizarre.

I'm starting to wonder whether you're just a little bit paranoid, Evil.

You make these points which are totally countered but just keep on repeating them.

Why would the Daily Mail have a field day at the notion of an efficient, productive school year with free childcare.

I repeat, have there ever been headlines about the existence of film clubs or football or lego club as extra curricular activities? Has there ever been a fuss about free nursery places for 3 year olds?

And why does the thought of it 'worry' you so much especially given you can still take your kids out for 6 weeks if you choose too (although they might actually prefer to stay).

Why not do things that we know are right, even if they are initially unpopular?

You know, the whole 'not because it is easy, but because it is hard' thing?

And people complain about lack of aspiration nowadays....

No, teachers would only run the extra curricular activities where they would choose to or where they would have an expertise. I know teachers who have expertise in Zumba or computer programming and all sorts of weird and wonderful things but there would also be (much cheaper) coaches etc.

I ran a week's summer school for G & T kids once (was paid for by the LA incidentally) and parents were queuing up. Kids loved it. Parents loved it. They all did a show at the end of the week.

This Utopia would be wonderful if we knew where the money was coming from.

I can't see why, in this age where most parents work, that teachers are the only group to do this-why not other working parents?

If you want to keep the costs right down you would use the school -and all interested parents, who wanted to use it in the summer, would go to a meeting and make a rota. Teachers would go to the school their DC attends and not their own. Those who won't take a turn couldn't use it. Those who didn't want to use it wouldn't get involved. Extra help could be roped in from students who wanted it to go on their CV.
It would be self help.

(I don't think caretakers would be happy as they do a deep clean in the summer but I expect it could be worked around)

DH teaches secondary, we moved to the USA a few years ago. the summers here are INSANELY long, and overall their school year is shorter than the UK one. I spent six years teaching freshers at an ivy league uni and ime their school leavers know a lot less in terms of information and skills. a shorter school year must be part of it.

' they mostly have young families and so would not want to work over the optional six weeks.'

But there would be teachers like me who would love the opportunity to work for an extra couple of weeks in return for more non contact time each week so that I could spend more time with my young family at evenings and at weekends.

oh, ok.there will be money to pay for support staff (from where?) but i am going to work another 7 weeks for free.

Arisbottle, you've obviously missed the bit where I've said many times that families could take their kids out when it suited them so there would be no 6 week summer slot where all the nice families who can afford to take their kids out do so leaving all the vulnerable kids behind.

Some parents might like to take 6 weeks during the autumnn term or the spring term.

Likewise for teachers. Obviously there'd need to be negotiation such that you have enough staff throughout the year.

More red herrings.

Odd.

'This Utopia would be wonderful if we knew where the money was coming from.'

I wonder if some of you might like to just step back and ask yourselves why you're quite so resistant to change and hole picking in what is so obviously a good idea. The system I'm suggesting needn't even affect you and yet it would be hugely advantageous to many working parents so where's the problem?

Teacherwith2kids has suggested the pupil premium as a source of partial funding. I have suggested the millions that have ploughed into free schools and academices but also the savings from benefits because parents wouldn't have to pay for childcare. There's already lots of money that goes into play schemes, sport projects etc. And what about making Starbucks and co pay their million in oustanding taxes? And there would be far reaching and long term benefits because to the economy making the investment worth while.

'i am going to work another 7 weeks for free.'

You're not actually reading what I'm writing. You could EITHER work exactly the same hours that you currently work and continue to take a 6 week break OR spread out the hours as I would choose to do.

I would imagine that most staff will want the time off in the summer, not least because I do not want want to be going off on my jollies before my key stage four and five classes have done their exams. My time straight after exams is also very valuable because that is when I have the time to plan with senior colleagues for next year because we all have gained time. I will also have worked hard to build up a relationship with my classes them and would worry about just handing them over to someone else. Maybe that is arrogance on my part, but I am the one who is accountable for their results and therefore it matters to me that they are taught as well as possible and that I retain some control.

I did see where you said children could take the six weeks when they wanted, would they have to take the whole six weeks or just a week out of six?. I would imagine that if you struggle to cover six weeks off in August you would struggle to cover them at any time of the year. So children would be drifting in and out. the children who have poor attendance and underachieve will take the whole six weeks and spend that time watching Jeremy Kyle. So not much will change there. Other children will not get any of the six weeks and most will want somewhere in the middle.

I do think the summer camp is a good idea and I do think it is quite lovely that you would work six extra weeks for no pay. You are clearly a much nicer person than me. I just think that you are something of a rare breed and therefore we cannot plan an overhaul to the education system based in rare breeds. Because in reality the head is not going to ask you to work at 2/3 of the pace of me because I clock off late July and you carry on beavering away. Will your classes understand that Miss Aris marks work and hands it back earlier than you because you work over your summer? Perhaps your timetable could be reduced to give you more free time, but it would just be much simpler to run the summer camp model run mainly by outsiders with the odd teacher like you who is willing to give up their summer holiday . But it would be a separate contract to your teaching contract and you would be paid the same rate as the other instructors.

I think lots of us think using schools for summer activities is a good idea and if we could afford to fund it so those on low incomes could take part that would be even better. I do think there should be some means testing, because why should a family like mine benefit from free tennis lessons for six weeks?

We just don't agree that it should be linked to teachers, unless they want to do some extra work in the holidays. I suspect you will have some teachers who want to do it, just as some teachers do exam marking , offer their services in local schemes now.