What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

Fivecandles.

You say that you propose a choice of computer programming and classes for those who are behind to catch up. What about those who are behind who won't be attending during the holidays or after school? How will they access the same opportunities?

I should probably make it clear that I do not feel that fivecandles' radical proposal of 'drop in / out' modules with a possibility of taking 6 weeks off at any point in the year is feasible in its current form.

My view, however, is that there are simpler proposals that could have equally beneficial effects - e.g. either the current holiday structure but with most weeks of the summer holidays having 'broadly educational' childcare available in school, staffed by specialists and a few school staff.

Or, slightly more racially, a shift to mainly 2 week breaks throughout the year (2 weeks October half term, 2 weeks at Christmas, 1 week Feb, 2 weeks around Easter [though not always coinciding with it], 2 weeks summer half term, and 4 weeks in the summer holidays], an equalising of the length of each term [which is why 'the 'Easter' holiday might not be at Easter], and the same 'broadly educational' childcare being provided in school premises for at least 1 week of every 2 week holiday and for at least 3 of the summer holiday weeks. Pupil premium could be used to fund a certain number of free weeks for each child from a low income family, other families would pay. Most staff would not be school staff, but a few would be, anbd those staff would have annualised contracts where their pay would be exactly what it is now but they would work fewer hours in school terms in order to be able to work for some days during the holidays. The remaining school staff would have exactly the same holiday entitlement as now, and as all state schools would work to a very similar term pattern, their holidays would largely correspond to those of their children.

Arisbottle, you could take less than 6 weeks but you would have to take kids out during the leisure block and not out of other subjects. So you could holiday for 2-3 weeks and then stick your kids back in for the drama project/football/ extra maths whatever.

Fivecandles.

Are you really a teacher?
Because if you are the standard of English is certainly on the decline.

"Jobs that are easy put downable". No wonder nobody is taking you seriously.

morethan, I suppose you could recommend that the kids who are falling behind do not take the full 6 weeks off but not much else you can do. Better you give the option at least rather than now where there is v limited extra support.

The reality is that the kids who are most likely to need catch up are probably also least likely to be taken out of school for 6 weeks.

I sort of thing personal attacks just reflect badly on the attacker morethan. I'm typing in a hurry. I didn't know the grammar police were out and I also think the length of this thread is evidence that a lot of people are taking these issues very seriously even if they don't agree with my ideas

I think both of your ideas are good teacherwith2kids. It also gives more time for school trips and more chances to broaden children's horizons. Most years I give up a week or sometimes two weeks to run a school trip and schools rely on the goodwill from teachers to do this.

Morethan, that is uncalled for, I never proof read on here and am often typing on a phone or an iPad so my posts are riddled with errors.

The children who were behind could be formally invited to opt for extra tuition which may make them more likely to stay, particularly if it is for free. When I run revision classes I tend to phone a few parents to suggest that their child attends.

Well, I'm certainly open to other models. I would also consider a nominal charge for leisure blocks/summer schools with free places for the most deprived as with free school meals now.

I am utterly GOBSMACKED by some of the posts in reply to my earlier post on standardised hours. Really. It is absolutely clear that so many teachers really think the job has to be done around their need/desire for flexible hours. Such a sense of self entitlement. Its breathtaking.

YOU REALLY DONT GET IT DO YOU!?

That's precisely why so many parents resent your hours and your holidays.

The whole education system revolves around what you want. It revolves around your life. No one works that way out there in business. The deal is you work for money and fit your life round work and what your employer needs.

I think teachers need to get real.

Arisbottle.

Point made, maybe uncalled for. However, "put downable" is just plain bad English.

There are dc who couldn't attend after school revision for various reasons. Surely, this should be addressed during normal school hours.
There is no way my dd could have attended tuition after school hours as every evening she attends private lessons in none curricular subjects.

how much work do you do for free, morebeta?

I do think that the cost is going to huge, according to recent figures 20% of children are living in poverty.

I do not know the figure but off the top of my head that is about 2.5 million children. If all those children use the scheme for one day and it is about half what companies usually charge (£15) that is £37.5 million a day. Over a week that is £187.5 million . if they use it for six weeks we are talking staggering figures .

I am no economist so do not know whether that is a drop in the ocean or eyond our reach.

.... and another thing.

Feenie - you keep having a poke at my choice of sending my children to privaye school. One of the main reasons I do that is the 'extra curricular and after school care'. My children are at school 8.15 - 5.15. They do their homework there and all sorts of activities outside classroom time.

A lot of private school parents choose private school for that very reason. They need their children to be looked after and supervised while they work. It is a very important motivator where both parents work. State schools just dont do it but private schools have had to respond to the paying cutomer's need. They also put on good quality holiday clubs too.

Surely the state school system has to respond in the same way.

'Put downable' is a great phrase for conversation. These are Mumsnet 'Talk boards' not essay writing clubs. Sheesh!

Morebeta I am currently working in excess of double my contracted hours. I do not have to, I choose to do so because I think that the children in my care deserve the best education that I can give them.

During the weekdhring term time I have about two hours when I am not working . Howon earth is that self entitlement.

Every year I give up an additional week or sometimes two weeks to take children in school trips? how is that self entitlement?

all of the work that i do outside of actually teaching, i do when it suits me. it makes no difference whether that is between the hours of 9-6, early morning, or 3am. it affects my students not one jot.

if you are proposing that my hours be standardised so that i am at school 9-6, and supervising students during that time, my prep etc still needs to be done, but i have lost another 3 hours or so in which to do it. i also need to plan things to do (even if they are non curricular fun things) during the extra contact time.

you are asking people to do a lot more work, at no extra pay, and lose half their holiday time to boot.

i am not sure if it is teachers being entitled here

Morebeta most days of the week I am with children for those hours. My school is filled with children most days until about 5pm. The will be doing sport , playing chess, learning a language, making films, watching films or doing extra study.

But it is precisely because so many staff want to run such clubs that our working hours become so long during term time.

It's very telling how I mentioned the need to cost this out 30 pages back and so far, everybody who wants it to happen has danced around the issue.

MoreBeta, I think it's you who has missed the point. If I only worked during the hours I was paid, I would have time to teach, plan and mark work. I would not have time to write lengthy reports to send home, I wouldn't have time to analyse data in order to plan my lessons better. There would be no extra-curricular drama at my school. No school play, no concerts. I would not have written a staff & 6th form panto at Christmas. There would not have been a 6th form Christmas party. No theatre trips or G&T drama activities. I do all of that and more in these hours I have the nerve to put in to suit myself. If I worked the hours I got paid for, the children I teach would have a far less rich and varied experience. It's you who needs to get real.

That's my experience too, MoreBeta. Private schools really get the needs of working parents so there's usually excellent wrap around care. They don't have this rather odd attitude that parents are rather pesky and demanding creatures and even judgmental attitude towards working parents as is evident in places here since they understand that parents need to work to pay fees. Equally, parents at private schools expect to see a good range of extra curricular activities which, at my school, extends to after school and even weekends. I am inclined to agree with your views about teachers' sense of entitlement too but there's something sort of odd about the acceptance of all the unpaid hours together with the fierce protection over holidays. I've consistently argued that teachers' contracts need to change to reflect the hours they actually do and to make those hours more manageable.

I suppose the relationship between parents and teachers' salaries is more obvious and direct in private schools but, in my view, it's no less important in the relationship between state school parents and teachers' salaries even if the salaries come indirectly via taxes.