What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

'there is no money'. That's ridiculous. The government allocates money according to its priorities. It had enough money to bomb the Hell out of Libya.

'Figures released by the Government in response to questions in Parliament show that it costs £35,000 to keep a Tornado GR4 in the air for an hour and £70,000 for a Typhoon, taking into account the cost of fuel, staffing and maintenance.'

It's also the case that it could gain millions from tax avoiders like Starbucks.

MoreBeta I guess I work about the same as FiveCandles has stated. It's not directed time. But sometimes it's four hours one evening, none the next, sometimes it's all afternoon and evening on Sunday. They point being that you can't chunk it down into convenient slots. Too much of it needs to be completed in one go- if I did an extra 2 hours after 3 every day, then left whatever we unfinished, unfinished, I would run into problems.

FiveCandle you really DO live in cloud cuckoo land.

Exotic, not all doctors are GPs. What is lost (financially and otherwise) by hospital doctors not working at weekends? At its most stark you are more likely to die if you have to go to hospital at the weekend because of this.

It's interesting that you say if you were a doctor you wouldn't want to work at weekends but I'd like to think that decisions about our taxes and public institutions are not made on the basis of what a particular group of employees would prefer but on the basis of what is best for all of us.

Doctors should not dictate hospital hours on the basis of their personal convenience and neither should teachers dictate school hours for this reason.

Surely that's the point of having goverment - it's supposed to balance all our needs and spend our money wisely. Ho, ho!

'If I was working for 8 weeks when the kids weren't in school, which was the suggestion'

I must have missed that. That's the opposite of what I'm suggesting. I'm arguing for more non contact time for all teachers each week and, actually, more time for kids to consolidate and work one to one with teachers too. This would be possible if some of the hours that teachers ALREADY work during the holiday were added on to the normal school week so that there would be less holiday but also less teaching time for each teacher each week.

The idea that if Starbucks paid their taxes it would go into education is laughable. Everything boils down to money. Hell will freeze over before schools get double the teachers so that terms can be longer and the work load can be down to a reasonable level.

'you really DO live in cloud cuckoo land.'

I'm sorry but I don't get why it's OK to argue that it's find to preserve an academic year based on medieval harvests but it's cloud cuckoo land to suggest change based on the academic, social and economic needs of our society as it is NOW.

The cloud cuckoo land was in response to you saying that there is money. The current government have no interest in investing in education and therefore it's fanciful to suggest that they would finance anything like you're suggesting.

My argument about doing stuff when the kids aren't in is response to MoreBeta's post about teachers doing 9-5 all year except for 5 weeks' holiday, but that students have 4x10 week terms. I don't disagree with your suggestion about less contact time, but don't think it's realistic as the government would never finance it.

evil - I also can only comment on secondary and I fully agree with everything you say; you can't plan that far ahead...

For instance, you teach/mark books and it is obvious that we need to go over something again in a different way asap and therefore your planning changes; different groups/children have different needs which don't become apparent until you are actually teaching them and understand what works with your different students with each different topic.

I also have periods where I am working until past midnight and periods where I don't do anything when I get home but once again I will point out the point of this thread is not about teacher basing but about the educational value of the holidays....children of all ages need time off to be children/teenagers and to relax in order to grow as people not just as robots

exotic, the government spends money according to its priorities. Why is it the case that it's cloud cuckoo land to suggest more non contact time for teachers but nobody says the money 'isn't there' for the olympics opening ceremony that cost 27 million?

'The current government have no interest in investing in education'

Well, that's not the case either. Millions have been invested in the academy programme.

It is not the case that there is no money to invest. It is the case that this government in particular is investing the money very poorly.

Yes, the government has invested poorly. Your suggestion of more teachers with less contact time is sensible and therefore not something I imagine the government would go for.

'but don't think it's realistic as the government would never finance it.'

You see, if somebody had come to me a couple of years ago and said they had a great idea for a new Maharishi or Steiner school and do you think the governemnet would fund it to the tune of a few million I would have thought that was 'fanciful' or 'cloud cuckoo' or 'unrealistic' but welcome to the world of free schools.

Why do we seem accept this sort of squadering of public money but assume in this defeatist way that we shouldn't even ask for teachers to have less contact time?

Whoever it was that suggested teaching academic subjects from 9-3 and then sport/drama etc from 3-5, have you been in many state primaries recently? We have 580 pupils with one small field, one hall and a playground. How would you coordinate 18 classes (plus 2 nursery classes-would you like the 3 year olds to operate your 8-5 plan as well, after all-their parents might have jobs to go to) using these facilities so the teachers can be marking uninterrupted in their classrooms?

The other point made about more textbooks-again, have you been in a state primary? We are not allowed to use text books or workbooks and worksheets are heavily frowned on. Ideas are supposed to be spontaneously made up, tailor-made for each group.

I can't see government produced text-books being made any time soon!

I think that more money to pay teachers so that a school could have more would be an excellent idea-but it will never happen-I could bet my life on it!

nobody says the money 'isn't there' for the olympics opening ceremony that cost 27 million?

They will always find it when they want to. If they had saved the 27million it wouldn't have gone into education. There are other things that are equally deserving-care of the elderly for a start.

And they don't get it either!

OK I am getting lost in the welter of contact hours, directed hours, unpaid holiday or paid holiday.

What I am taking away from this is that the majority of teachers and their unions are just not willing to think about changing how they work and when they work to bring themselves into line with the rest of the economy and society.

Parents will wrongly conclude that it is because you just want to keep your 13 weeks holiday. I know you dont get 13 weeks holiday but one day, change will be forced on you and it will not be to your benefit and almost certainly unfair.

I don't accept it, I think it's awful. I don't have any faith in the government. That's why I say it's fanciful!

I think some of you are getting too locked into details which were only suggestions and are massively missing the bigger point which is that the school year is ripe for review and there could be enormous advantages to this for everyone.

Except it won't happen, and that is nothing to do with teachers' attitudes and everything to do with money!

Must go anyway because I'm neither relaxing nor working effectively!

It has been an interesting discussion and I think it's an important debate to be had.

Rather than teachers being negative and refusing to adapt, it sounds more like there are a handful of grumpy parents who are pissed off and bitter that they have to organise childcare for their own children when they think teachers owe them a living. These same people are then coming up with extremely unworkable schemes to try to make this happen and then when they are told how unrealistic their plans are-have a little strop and say teachers are stuck in their ways!!

I do get 13 weeks holiday a year and it was part of the terms and conditions I have signed up for . I went into teaching because I wanted more time with my family . If that is threatened it is not a job for me.

I am allowed to make that choice and it does not make me any less of a teacher .

If teaching is so wonderful why not join us? I love my job but it does make me cross how little we are regarded as professionals. I am not a childminder!

letseatgrandma - "We are not allowed to use text books or workbooks and worksheets are heavily frowned on. Ideas are supposed to be spontaneously made up, tailor-made for each group."

Are you really telling me that state primary schools don't use text books and every teacher has to effectivley write their own text books for every class every year.

Really, standardised materials which allow teachers latitude to pick easier or harder work for different abilities has to be the way to go.

I just can't believe only private schools use text books.