What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

Teachers (myself included) are stressed about workload and how much they have to work in the evenings and during holidays.

Working parents are stressed because finding good quality, affordable childcare over school holidays is a nightmare.

A huge number of disadvantaged kids leave school practically illiterate and innumerate.

Many parents complain that their children's individual needs are not catered for in the school system.

Billions are spent on incredible school buildings with amazing facilities that lie unused for 13 weeks of the year.

A number of children (the most disadvantaged) are left unsupervised for long periods of time sometimes getting involved in petty crime and often moving backwards educationally during the summer break.

And some of you honestly can't see any need or way of changing things to help resolve some of these issues?

And what is your motivation for keeping things the same again? Because you and the pupils get tired, unlike, apparently other jobs and kids in other cultures? Because that is the way things have always been?

Honestly, it doesn't reflect well on you.

It's the unwillingness to even debate how things might be improved with children's interests at heart that's so troubling. And yet you bang on about how committed and hard working you are.

'If I could work for 2 hours after school each day, and not have to do anything in the evenings, I would. But teaching can't be done like that. '

Of course it could if you had less contact time because you're not rushing to get through things so you can relax for 6 weeks at a time.

MoreBeta - teachers in school every day except 5 weeks holiday. I presume paid holiday? So that's 5x52 which is 260 days.

Yes, teachers do prep in the holidays, but there's only so much you can do in advance since planning needs to take into account progress of students. I can't predict that 8 weeks in advance. Similarly, marking and assessment- needs to be done as we go along. Can't be done in handy chunks when the kids aren't in school.

FiveCandles the bottom line is that I matters bugger all what teachers think. No government has ever tried to introduce these changes. I'm not against change, but I am against suggestions being made by people who don't get how it works, and I certainly wouldn't do more hours without appropriate pay. I'm a teacher, not a mug.

And while I don't agree that standardised teaching resources and lesson plans would be possible or desirable, I do think that, given less contact time, teachers could work much smarter for the good of the children in that they could work with individual and small groups but also work with other teachers do produce resources collaboratively instead of slaving away individually over the holidays.

I also think there's room for much more individualised and flexible learning e.g. online which would be made easier given a more balanced year.

Where I live in Scotland, there is a 2 week break in October to allow school children to harvest potatoes.

It is absurd and archaic. How can this be 21st Century Britain? I think each school should be able to set holidays the way they see fit. I'm pretty certain that having regular 3 week breaks is far better than the long summer short winter holidays.

Less contact time? Great. How will that be paid for? More teachers? How will schools pay for that? You live in cloud cuckoo land.

'No government has ever tried to introduce these changes.'

This must be a figment of my imagination then!
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086278/Michael-Gove-calls-longer-school-days-shorter-holidays.html

'I'm not against change, but I am against suggestions being made by people who don't get how it works'

I think I can safely say that I do get how it works but, I also think it's important to recognize that schools don't exist in a bubble. We are part of society and should help that society function as best we and it can.

The attitude of some posters here is that working parents are some sort of pesky intruders when obviously we should be working with them for the education and welfare of their kids.

If parents don't understand how education works then that's a failing on our part isn't it? And if teachers are prioritiising our own convenience over what works best for kids and society as a whole then I think they probably chose the wrong vocation.

EvilTwins - you keep moving the goalposts on what the working year is for a teacher.

What is it in your view or even your experience?

I am not arguing for more hours and no pay. I dont want teachers working 8 am - 9pm and then flopping in holidays. I want a more 'normal' year.

read through this thread with great interest and as I expected it turned into a teacher bashing and "we get 13 weeks holiday so we should be grateful" tone...
as another poster pointed out (I apologise in advance for shouting)

WE DO NOT GET PAID FOR THOSE 13 WEEKS NOT IN SCHOOL - OUR PAY IS FOR THE 195 DAYS WE ARE IN SCHOOL AND IS JUST AVERAGED OUT SO WE RECEIVE A PAYMENT EVERY MONTH

What other profession who only worked part of the year would have demands that they worked for free in their own time when they are not being paid? We have no choice as to when we work, when we take a holiday, taking the odd day off work for a delivery etc...and this is for professionals who have not only gained a good degree but also a post grad qualification...my DS gets treated better than that in his PT chip shop job!

EvilTwins, are you always so negative?

FGS, it is depressing that teachers should be so blindly resistant to even debating change.

I'd like to think that we should be the first to embrace and pass on skills of evaluation, research, debate, new ideas, considering improvement...

the suggestions who have give five aren't without merit; I would welcome less contact time in order to plan/mark etc - but where would the money come from to pay for more teachers to be employed?

'I dont want teachers working 8 am - 9pm and then flopping in holidays. I want a more 'normal' year.'

That's what I want too and I am a teacher. My kids are often in aftercare until 5 when I'm still at work anyway and then my dp has to take responsibility for childcare during at least half of the holidays while they're awake. When they're asleep I'm working most evenings until between 10pm and midnight.

I'd prefer it if I could work until 5 pm every day and have less holiday if it meant I would get evenings back and holidays were really holidays.

I'd also love the time to feel as though I was doing my job properly in terms of having the time to plan and work with individual students and small groups.

MoreBeta. Teachers' directed time is 1265 over 195 days. That's not me shifting goalposts, that's what the Pay & Conditions document says.

Obviously teachers work more hours than that, but those are the number of hours my HT can direct me for- this includes parents' evenings, open evening etc etc. That's what I get paid for. If you want me to work 9-5, 47 weeks per year then give m 5 weeks paid holiday, you are directing me for 260 paid hours.

FiveCandles - you are a teacher, so you must know that the job can't be done in regular daily chunks, and that sometimes it's necessary to put in extra time to get a particular task completed and then sometimes you can leave on the bell and not have to do anything that evening. As a teacher, I enjoy the autonomy.

You seem to think that parents are more important than kids- I for one would not want my 6 yr olds to be in school til 5 every day, even if they're doing music/sport or whatever.

FiveCandles - I'm not negative. I just disagree with you.

You haven't given me any solutions to the issue of where the money would come from to pay for teachers having less contact time. I would LOVE less contact time. On an average day, I don't get time to eat or go to the loo. Not being negative though. I love my job.

But, ironically, my kids ARE in school until 5 every day because so am I to fit in all the teaching so, in theory, everyone can relax over the holidays (in fact I'm still marking work via email so it's not even the case that all the kids are relaxing).

I don't think parents are more important than kids. I think we all need to work together and it's a mistake to see any one group parents, kids, teachers as separate. I cannot stand the attitude of some teachers towards parents (very evident on this thread) where people say that you shouldn't have had kids if you find childcare difficult.

fivecaandles - how could your job be changed or made easier so that you didnt have to work so late in school term but still teach the same number of chikldren to the same standard?

I suggested standard curriculum, teacher notes, teaching materials to relieve you of the burden of producing it but you and other teacherss say it cant be done.

My children have text books and hand outs that clearly the whole class uses. I can't see why the Govt couldnt give all teachers these materials in a pack. It woulD cost money to produce but at least every teacher would not be producing their own. It must waste millions of teacher hours doing that every year?

Evil, MoreBEta's (good) point is that most of us are working beyond directed time (and therefore unpaid) over the holidays ANYWAY so why not change the school year to reflect that?

Yes, I get that, but it can't be done like that. There is too much that can't be done during the time when kids aren't there. Or rather, too much that has to be done whilst the kids ARE there.

'You haven't given me any solutions to the issue of where the money would come from to pay for teachers having less contact time.'

How about from making Starbucks pay its taxes? What do you want me to say?

I think, like government grants for 3 year olds, there would be an enormous advantage to the economy from spreading the school year such that it would be worth the extra investment. Not to mention the advantage academically (which translates to the economy) and the savings from dealing with kids who get involved in petty crime - it's widely beleived that the riots from a couple of years ago (which cost millions) wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for the school holidays.

EvilTwins - I think you are being obtuse. You know perfectly well what I am asking.

How many total hours do you work per year now. I know you work more than 1265 hours over 195 days now.

'There is too much that can't be done during the time when kids aren't there'

Eh?

If I had another few hours at school each week of non contact time I'd be a much more effective teacher.

It would be bloody marvellous if I could get my hands on individual kids without taking them out of lessons during the normal school week as well.

I don't believe there are any teachers who would disagree with that.

I would still be in teaching Fivecandles if it could be run as you suggest. It never will be, there is no money. I didn't think you were are primary teacher where you have to get them all changed - go to the hall for PE - get back - hurry them all to get changed and start immediately on maths- hurry them through the door because you are on playground duty and hope that a TA will bring you a coffee because otherwise you won't get one- get back in- take off your coat and go straight into Science , which only works because you got all the equipment ready before the day started- and relentlessly onwards.

On doctors- the exact wording from the BMA was 'the NHS has more urgent priorities than catering for the convenience of the middle class'. If I was a doctor I would be quite happy to see emergencies, but if someone wants a typhoid injection for a holiday- or non urgent problem- they can jolly well take time off work and come in normal hours!

MoreBeta - standard teaching materials won't work for a number of reasons. One is that lessons need to be planned for specific children, specific cohorts- differentiated in all sorts of ways. Secondly, not all teachers are the same and it makes sense to play to your strengths. Thirdly, the autonomy of planning lessons and selecting material is part of the joy of teaching. I LIKE choosing what to teach and how to teach it. I plan my lessons for my classes, based on my knowledge of them. At the moment I have 3 year 9 group. Each is studying a different play, as each has a different ability level and I want to be able to challenge each group and each individual. Also, adapting someone else's material is, IME, just as time consuming as creating your own, and in some cases, more so.

MoreBeta I would say I work about 15 hours each week over and above direct time. I probably work at least the equivalent of 1/3 of each school holiday.

FiveCandles what I meant is that the bulk of my work, as a secondary teacher, is planning and assessment. If I was working for 8 weeks when the kids weren't in school, which was the suggestion, then couldn't do that, as so much of it has to be done as you go along- planning the next lesson after the previous one etc. Those 8 weeks wouldn't necessarily help reduce term-time workload.