What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

Each teacher has less contact time and more time for planning, admin and CPD. And if you have more time to deliver the curriculum you would also have more time to intervene and work with individual pupils who are failing to keep up

Absolutely spot on! Agree 100%. Teachers would be very happy with that. HOWEVER it will never happen-too expensive. Schools need double the number of teachers (or at the very least 25% more per school)

'You haven't the least understanding of what is done in the holidays.'

Er, I am a teacher on holiday and would be working if I wasn't procrastinating on Mumsnet!

By and large the kids and parents who are most disadvantaged by longer holidays are the poorest.

Not in my school.

Are you a primary teacher?

'I think they are quite happy to see and treat emergencies-but they are saying 'bugger the ones who are not'-I would. (they are saying it loud and clear in the Times today)'

But it's well known that death rates in hospital increase dramatically over weekends. I'm sure that everyone would prefer to have long holidays and not work unsocial hours but sometimes things have to work on what is best for the general good rather than what suits individuals in one or two professions.

Again, I'm sure there's been all sorts of research on the economic and other advantages of having a full service in the NHS over weekends and it's incredible.

Why aren't decisions made based on the evidence of what works rather than the vested interests of influential figures?

Secondary.

'Not in my school.'

How can you know what each child gets up to in the holidays?

'Studies have shown that patients are around 16 per cent per cent more likely to die if they are admitted to hospital at the weekend due to a lack of senior staff.'

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9146044/Hospitals-should-operate-seven-days-a-week-NHS-top-doctor.html

So, should NHS hours be organised for the convenience of doctors or patients and taxpayers?

And should schools hours be organised for the convenience of teachers or for pupils, parents and taxpayers?

As with all things there are clearly compromises that can be made but there IS a debate to be had. It's not good enough in this day and age to do things a certain way because that's the way they've always been done.

Would this be a feasible normalisation?

School year of 4 x 10 week terms.

Pre school drop off supervised by TA from 8.30 am.

Academic subject teachers with contact hours 9 am - 3 pm and 2 hours classroom prep/marking time after school up to 5 pm and no after school hours.

Games, PE, swimming, art, drama, homework, after school clubs 3 - 5 pm.

Teachers have to be physically in school 9 - 5 every day even when children not there except for 5 weeks annual holiday and 1 week INSET.

All standard teaching materials provided online (with teaching notes and teaching schedules by Govt so teachers) do not have to produce their own materials in holidays just do familiarisation work and writing a report on each child assessing their progress and objectives.

My thinking is that surely that schedule would be a 'normal year' and requires no extra working time for most teachers hence same payscale just different but normal working hours.

In secondary schools I presume specialist games, music, art teachers would teach mainly in the 3 - 5 slot but not in mornings.

Some extra resource would be required to deliver the extra activities in the 3 - 5 pm slot and supervise school pick up 5 - 5.30 pm.

Could it work? How much extra would it cost?

God, not 10 weeks again, MoreBeta - primary school children are tired after 6 or so weeks - how much more tired would they be after 10?

All standard teaching materials provided online (with teaching notes and teaching schedules by Govt)

Jeez. You really don't have the slightest understanding how good teaching happens, do you?

This is annoying me - the only two posters banging on about this are a teacher from the private sector and a parent from the same. 17 weeks is a huge amount, yes. Just shave four weeks off and bring it in line with everyone else if it's such a massive problem for you.

I meant academically it isn't a problem for children in my school, fivecandles - I would suggest it's a problem in the private secor because it amounts to about a third of a year off.

I think some of those suggestions are excellent.

What is meant by school really needs to change and be more flexible to suit the changing needs of our society.

Feenie - they already do that amount of time in school. It is not more weeks. Doing 4 x 10 weeks spreads it out more evenly.

Feenie, I have only moved to the private sector this year after 15 years in state so your jibes are misplaced.

And, once again, it's not really the kids in the private sector who have most to gain is it? It's parents for whom holidays could make the difference between whether or not it makes economic sense for them to work or not and their kids.

MoreBeta - more than six weeks in a row is a problem re tiredness in KS1 children.

Ten weeks consecutively would be worse!

I am not talking about private schools here either. Really I am not.

As it happens my DSs private school does work that schedule I suggested but a slightly shorter school year. They do though run holiday clubs in summer which I accept I have to pay for and it is run by some of the teachers in the school buildings.

Morebeta

After reading your ridiculous suggestions it makes me glad that my dd is no longer in the school system

How on earth could you make dc stay in school until 5pm. Apparently in secondary school you'd only be able to access non academic subjects between 3- 5 pm as the subject specialist teacher wouldn't be there during the morning.

I can't see too many parents wanting their dc to attend school for so many hours to be honest.

What about those of us who teach drama?

Standard teaching materials available online is a ridiculous idea since "standard" children do not exist.

Planning has to be done as the school year goes on, taking into account attainment in the previous lesson. Same with marking, assessment, report writing. I couldn't do things like that in the holidays (as you're suggesting)

New Zealand KS1 children dont seem to get too tired with a 4 term year.

morethanpotato - a 9 - 5 school day is quite normal in private schools.

Many state school children increasingly do Kumon or other drama/dance/sport activities after school. It really is not that unusual.

Of course there are standard teaching materials. School text books and handouts already widely used for example. Teachers already allocate and select and tailor the material to the needs of each child.

I teach drama. Do you want me to teach 9-5 or are you taking me out of the curriculum and sidelining me to extra curricular?

It would be far too costly to increase teachers' pay to cover this. We get paid for 1265 hours of directed time across 195 days. You are suggesting, I assume, 5 weeks of paid holiday? And 47 weeks of paid work? So 260 days? Assuming the calculation presented earlier of £110 per day, that's an extra £7000ish per teacher, at least. Not really feasible, is it?

FGS, MoreBeta was just making suggestions and asking what might work.

It really does cast teachers in a bad light when they are so defensive and vitriolic when anybody suggests the system might change for good reasons.

How depressing.

Morebeta,

that is private school though and obviously has been made by choice. If the same option was given to state schools and parents chose to finish at 3pm as usual, then couldn't access music and drama.

MoreBeta asked if her suggestions might work. She has been given reasons why they wouldn't.

If I could work for 2 hours after school each day, and not have to do anything in the evenings, I would. But teaching can't be done like that. Surely you know that, FiveCandles. How would you feel as the parent of a child whose book didn't get marked because it was 5pm and my working hours were up? What about not getting the end of term report til half way through the holiday because that was when it was written? If you are a teacher then surely you KNOW that it can't be done in regular 9-5 chunks.

EvilTwins - Hang on. Where are you getting 260 days from?

I thought teachers did preparation work in the holidays already? That is what teachers say they do. I am saying teachers still would do it just the same.

It seems like you are saying you do nothing in holidays NOW so is the 13 weeks really a holiday?