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Original poster

Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

543 replies

Solopower1 · 26/10/2012 11:53

What do you think? Smile

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

OP posts:
Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:36

I'm not ignoring it. I'm trying to get to the point. Do you think disruptive children whose behaviour is detrimental to others should be left in class?

Actually you already agreed with me that you don't, so it is a bit pointless.

Yy all the other stuff about classroom management is obvious and uncontroversial. No it's not about "just kicking bad kids out". But that's the part we're talking about.

Unless I've interrupted a conversation between teachers about optimum classroom management techniques, in which case, I'm sorry.

EvilTwins · 31/10/2012 09:43

No, I don't think disruption should be ignored. If students will not respond to warnings, I send them to a partner class, since that is my school's policy. However, I don't think that children should be branded as "disruptive" and removed from the school system.

Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:45

I must just quickly say : this is how it looks.

Someone says :
children who disrupt the learning of others should be removed from class.

Responses:
the behaviour should be managed before it becomes disruptive
not all children are disruptive
in my class this is how I manage behaviour
managing behaviour is not all about disruptive children
removing children is only part of the issue

Which of these responses address the original point? None. They all skirt round it.

I'm off to walk the dog!

EvilTwins · 31/10/2012 09:47

They're all valid responses!

Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:47

There we are Evil!

This part is a straw man though

"I don't think that children should be branded as "disruptive" and removed from the school system."

inserted so that you've still got something to disagree about. Only one person might disagree with you about that and he's not here right now. Unfortunately for you, I don't disagree with you about that and never have.

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2012 09:48

Brycie,

It seems to me from your posts that your understanding is:

  • That behaviour that disrupts the learning of other pupils (for more than the 30 seconds or so described in detail by EvilTwins above) is a common feature of most state school classrooms across the country.
  • That there is a bias towards dealing with it in class.
  • That schools do not have effective 'out of class' ways of dealing with such behaviour.

My understanding is a little different:

  • Occasional poor behaviour CAN be a feature in ANY school in the country in the hands of a poor teacher.
  • However, the vast majority of lessons in all schools proceed without any disruption whatever. The effort put in by many teachers to maintain this with some classes is considerable - all that proactiove work, never letting guard down for a moment, 'constant vigilance' is wearing and exhausting but the ACTUAL incidence of disruption in those classes as a result may be very low indeed.
  • The 'first line of defence' is always dealing with it in class initially - usually via a similar system of warnings to the one that EvilTwins describes. In the vast majority of cases, this is sufficient.
  • HOWEVER, IME schools have very effective 'out of class' systems for dealing with any more serious cases.
Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:49

They're just chit chat around the central point. If a child is disruptive should the child stay in the classroom. They don't address that point. They're designed to avoid making a view known on that point.

EvilTwins · 31/10/2012 09:49

Why is that unfortunate? I know that there is only one person on this thread who has said that. I just want to be very clear about it.

Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:51

My understanding has nothing to do with it.

Should disruptive children be removed from class if their behaviour is detrimental to others? It seems we are all beginning to agree.

Actually I don't mind talking about the other stuff. But there's no point unless you're ready to be straight.

Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:52

It's not unfortunate for me. I thought it would be unfortunate for you as you've been trying not to agree with me for about three days.

EvilTwins · 31/10/2012 09:53

I see your point, but the fact remains that it's quite complex. Should a child be removed the moment they put a foot out of line? What if a normally quiet student is having a bad day a d is talking out of turn? Should they be sent out straight away? At what point does it become disruption? Do you see what I mean?

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2012 09:54

As a clear answer to 'children who disrupt the learning of others should be removed from class'..

Children whose behaviour disrupts the work of others AFTER NORMAL IN-CLASS SANCTIONS / WARNINGS HAVE BEEN GIVEN may need to be removed from THAT class IN THE SHORT TERM, for example by removal to a parallel class, via intervention from the SMT etc.

However, pro-active work to e.g. arrange for SMT to visit this class on a regular basis, assessing and addressing any specific needs of the child based on their background, mentoring of the teacher if it is found that they have a relative weakness in classroom management etc should prevent such removal being a regular occurrence.

Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:56

Yes I agree it's complex. The central issue being - when they disrupt the learning of others. However your point is good, in that does a policy of zero tolerance help in the long term to maintain good behaviour, even though in the short term it may seem harsh? This is the sort of question that can surely be asked only class by class, teacher by teacher, pupil by pupil. It could be that tolerance of low level misbehaviour, while well intentioned, is counter-productive (or it may not).

Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:57

Ok so teacher you think it's ok for 29 children's learning to be temporarily disrupted by one disruptive child. For that period it's ok to prioritise the one disruptive child over the other 29.

Brycie · 31/10/2012 09:58

You can tell I lean towards the zero tolerance view - whatever support mechanisms are established for the pupil and the teacher beyond that.

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2012 09:59

X posted with EvilTwins - it might help to define what you mean by 'disruptive behaviour'.

The two girls at the back having a quick chat about their weekend? The child at the front swinging on his chair? The class clown making silly faces? Two boys carrying a playground incident into the classroom? The ASD child having a meltdown?

There is a continuum of behaviour in the classroom, and pretty much every child is capable of off-task behaviour at some point. Where would you like the line drawn?

Brycie · 31/10/2012 10:00

OK.

That it disrupts the learning of others.

That if tolerated could later disrupt the learning of others.

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2012 10:01

The time to give the appropriate number of warnings might well be 30 seconds, or a couple of minutes, or 3x10 second periods over a lesson. Do you feel that is unacceptable (especially if it means that in future that behaviour does not recur?)

Brycie · 31/10/2012 10:02

It depends how much disruption is caused to the other children in the class. Yes, two minutes is too long.

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2012 10:02

(It would generally take longer to remove a child from the classroom than for the required number of wanrings to be given - an in almost all cases the warnings are sufficient - so what's the problem?)

Brycie · 31/10/2012 10:07

If in almost all cases the warnings are sufficient are you telling me that no child ever repeats bad behaviour?

This is the question: is the price of removal (disruption, perceived harshness, fear of teacher unpopularity) worth the benefit, that is not just stopping current behaviour but deterring future behaviour.

Raven says it is, often. I agree. Evil agrees. You also agree.

But the post-benefit will differ child by child and class by class; and discerning between children will also have a cost in terms of perceived unfairness

These are the judgements teachers must make; and I don't envy you.

Brycie · 31/10/2012 10:07

the cost-benefit not the post-benefit

EvilTwins · 31/10/2012 10:08

Zero tolerance would never work. There has to be some level of contextual judgement.

Brycie · 31/10/2012 10:10

What about accusations of unfairness or the risks of inconsistency if you apply removal rules to different children in different ways in different context? How do you deal with that?

I am enjoying this conversation now, I must walk the dog but thank you for your reply in advance.

mrz · 31/10/2012 10:13

" Brycie Wed 31-Oct-12 09:45:12

I must just quickly say : this is how it looks.

Someone says :
children who disrupt the learning of others should be removed from class."

Can I ask how you would feel if the child being removed from class happened to be yours a nice well mannered child who had never previously put a foot wrong?