Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

But you work in an easier school Arisbottle. Didn't you say earlier you couldn't work in a tough school?

Because of the behaviour, I mean?

I used to work in an exceptionally tough school which posters like Ronaldo would have you believe was typical of the state system . Even there after I had established myself the problems were only in my toughest classes as we a withdrawal system - which there I had to make greater use of. In my second year, from memory , I had about three classes a week that were " hot spot classes" and I would have SMT there at the start and end of lessons, make use of withdrawal and a partner class. It was rare , for these groups, that I ever saw the whole class, as often a few pupils would be in our behavior unit. We did have a system there a little like the electronic register outlined by a poster above. If you were a problem two lessons running you we're removed from circulation completely and sometimes sent home. Although it worked in terms of keeping lessons running I don't think it solved long term behavior problems.

Now my school is easier - compared to a tough school like the one I came from previously . I now have one hot spot class, but there is not need to SMT involvement , mainly use of a partner class and me being a bit of a dragon. I have another class who are challenging and just require me to be on my game as it were. It is a good school , outstanding according to OFSTED, but I suspect there is a school like it in every town.

I chose not to work in schools like that while my children are relatively young because I think that it is too demanding, particularly because I have a pastoral role so spend a lot of time with the most demanding students, albeit the younger ones at that achool. I could do the job, but it took a lot out of me and i just wanted to cut myself some slack. I have a largish family and a husband who works away for periods of time and I felt like I could not give that job the energy and passion it needed and be there for my own children. It was not just the difficult behaviour but also the constant involvement with social services , poor parenting and abuse, physical, emotional and sexual.

That's nice of you to give so much detail, thanks.

It was a teacher I believe who raised this as an issue - her point was that whatever you did with testing, bad behaviour was driving teachers out of the profession. It wasn't ronaldo. That's why we were talking about it. She was making an anti-Gove point, that testing was tinkering only. Now, three days later into the thread!, far from driving techers out this problem apparently hardly exists. Teachers obviously have widely varying experiences of behaviour.

I have to admit there was a time in my first year when I thought I had chosen the wrong career and even when I was settled and doing well in the tough school I thought about going back to my original job. It wasn't just about behaviour but the emotional demands of working with children who are generally failed by society at every turn. Lots of the children just looked haunted by their own lives and therefore it wasn't surprising that the lives of kings and queens from 100s of years ago seemed irrelvant and if every now and again they kicked off. In that school I dealt with child prostitution , sexual abuse, children selling drugs, gangs, children coming into school hungry and filthy , physical abuse, children with parents in prison being passed around successive foster placements and children who were refuges from war. That is why it makes meal angry to here posters say that such children should just be ignored, stigmatized and thrown out of school.

Teaching in a school like that toughens you and makes you worry endlessly about your own children. I do think that teachers who work in the environment deserve far more pay than teachers like me. Your teacher training also does not prepare you for working in that kind of environment.

Having said all of that the highs that you get in a school like that are unbelievable and I do miss that feeling.

However even in a relatively easy school like mine there will be teachers who find the behaviour of students to be a real challenge . It may be that for whatever reason they are not following the set procedures and students exploit this or just that they are it suited to teaching .

Our biggest problem is students chatting, not a huge problem and it is unlikely that it would drive you out of teaching. It is irritating thiough.

Hear posters - sorry

Only one person has suggested throwing them out of school and not caring what happens.

There are conflicting messages - there is a disruptive behaviour problem, or there isn't?

If there is, surely the children should be out of class. If there isn't, what are we talking about.

I was the one who caused a deep intake of breath suggesting I did not care what happened to the disruptive as long as they were out of my classroom and more imortantly out of my DS's classroom That was the reason I went to HE. I can put up with personal abuse, physical and verbal but my DS should not have to put up with it and neither should any other "nice" child in a school.

My concern is for the welfare of the other 66% who donot misbehave and disrupt. They deserve and education. They deserve as much as I do to be free from the nasties! I dont care what their issues are. I cannot have a bleeding heart for them. I care about the other kids. They need protection But thats not PC to say.

As a teacher who worked in severaltough schools and whilst i am not going to play mine is bigger than yours,probably tougher than Arisbottles since it was recognised even by HMG as the lowest of the low, teaching becomes difficult not because you cant get discipline but because it is draining to keep on it. There is little or no respite. There is no satisfaction of a good lesson well done. There is a constant alertness for the behaviour issues and the one who is going to kick off big time. "low level" ( that is whatever the school deem can be accepted because thats the kids culture innit? and thats a moveable feast) is constant.

I teach in a decent school with virtually unheard of behaviour issues. Of course thats because I am a cr*p teacher who cant hack tough - despite the fact I did it for more years than arisbottle and in several schools. I guess I did 10 years of it. Now I have nice kids and I am glad I made the move and am sorry I didnt see the light earlier. But of course "nice kids" are fair game on MN. They are the only DC that can be disrespected and spoken of in disdainful terms like the "naice kids" or the "naice but dim" kids is a phrase seen often. If you made comments like that about any other group - SN or disabilities or even the rat bags in chav town - complaints would bring MN HQ down in a shot.

Well nice kids not only deserve and education to, they are generally appreciative of it. The do not deserve to be treated with disdain.

There are behaviour issues in the vast majority of state schools in areas of normal income distribution. Not where the NMers middle class high income earners live and the ones who bang on about there being no problems. Thats a fact. I guess they hope if you say there isnt a problem often enough it will disappear by magic. It doesnt, I gets swept under a carpet more often. The teachers get blamed when in fact its the pupils who are to blame. Its their background and their sub culture ( hoodie culture and street culture) driving it. No one wants to hear that.

Brycie, Classrooms and schools vary, all schools will have to deal with an element of disruption . Most teachers in its schools do this effectively . I suspect in every school there will be a core of teachers who struggle to maintain discipline . In tough schools the challenge is much greater and therefore more classes will face disruption, but for established skilled teachers this can be kept to a minimum if there is a clear effective discipline policy and staff are supported.

I agree with you Ronaldo that maintaining discipline is the draining thing, once I had got my act together I could control most of my lessons but I used to come home exhausted , which was not fair on my family . I disagree that there was no sense of satisfaction of a lesson well done, when something went well it felt fantastic and it inspired you to carry on.

I am not sure why Ronaldo seems to be taking all of this so personally and why he seems to be determined to come out of this the bigger , tougher teacher - but you are welcome to that crown. I have made my own failings vey clear on this thread and held my hand up to say that I only lasted in a tough school for a few years. I am to "selfish" to work in that kind of environment. Perhaps when my children need me less, I will go back to that environment.

I suspect Ronaldo that you would label my children as nasty chavs and yes I find that offensive. However they are growing into successful , intelligent young people that will make their own mark in the world. One has even managed to work his way into a grammar school. I have never disparaged nice children. Everyone knows that mumsnetters only have nice children. In fact one of my driving passions in teaching has been to ensure that the quiet, hard working and "nice" children are recognized and heard. I can care about more than one group at a time. Being that " chav" kid myself I recognized that benefitted from firm boundaries and discipline and therefore I never wanted to allow any child to get away with poor behaviour. Compassionate discipline was my aim.

I agree, there will be a discipline problem in every state school, however in most schools it is under control and it is only in the classroom of a few teachers that it becomes an issue that stops others learning. As I said earlier in those tougher schools, the problem is more widespread.

Brycie- you misunderstand if you think that disruptive kids keep disrupting the lesson until the call-out arrives. I will either say "ok, James, that's a C3. Take your work next door to Mrs Smith." or email reception for a call-out. In the meantime, James is ignored and everyone gets on. If James is interfering with another child, I might ask him to wait outside the room for the call-out, but that is frowned upon.

Jabed, I suspect you will always play the "my school was worse than your school" card. I will say one thing though. I taught for 4 years in a London school which was notoriously bad- think being in the news for violence against teachers. My first year there was tough. The subsequent years were great, because I had established myself. I was only 25 when I started there, but the hard slog of the first year was worth it. Not every teacher can succeed in every school, but sometimes it takes a huge amount of courage to admit that you cannot succeed in the school you're employed in. Tough kids need good teachers too.

LaVolcan: still it might help all those mumsnetters who complain about their teachers' poor spelling. Do you think that is a goo dthing or a bad thing,

I am sure it needs to be tackled - not sure that Gove's plans are the best way to go about it though.

"In that school I dealt with child prostitution , sexual abuse, children selling drugs, gangs, children coming into school hungry and filthy , physical abuse, children with parents in prison being passed around successive foster placements and children who were refuges from war."

With the exception of the refugees, we have all of that in what appears from the outside to be a very nice little village school out in the countryside (well, it's mainly older siblings who are in gangs / selling drugs, but it's definitely around). If all such children were 'removed from mainstream schools to make them nicer' then a surprising number of schools would be very, very empty!

However if you went round my school, you would guess none of the above. Behaviour is recognised as outstanding. A visitor thinking of moving her children from the much more 'Mumsnet' school a few villages over - because it's failing in terms of teaching and learning, despite having only 'nice' children in it - came out bewildered 'but everyone says that you're a tough school, where are all those difficult children everyone says that you have? I can't see any!.

OK, we're only a primary. But our belief - so far borne out if reports from senior school are true - is that if children learn patterns of behaviour in school young, and learn to accept discipline within the school environment, that will transfer at least in part to senior schools.

Should also say - because we've strayed from the OP - that there is no correlation between a teacher's maths and english skills and their ability to control (or indeed inspire) a class. Rather than 'weed out' excellent prospective teachers based on some arbitrary test, it would surely be better to select teachers for their abilities in the 'core' skills of teaching, and then use maths and English tests to identify any in need of particular work on these areas through coaching or specific courses...

I would rather than my children have an inspiring teacher, with fantastic behaviour management (which, as previous posters have said, is almost invisible when done well) and a genuine love of children / young people and their subject... but who then needed an extra English course during their training to brush up their spelling ... than a teacher with good 'on paper' Maths and English but who was a dull teacher who couldn't maintain children's interest and respect for long enough to control a class.

" Not where the NMers middle class high income earners live and the ones who bang on about there being no problems." I disagree one of the worst schools for behaviour I ever worked in was very leafy suburb, middle class highly educated parents (mostly children of lecturers or doctors )... and one of the best in terms of ethos was in a very deprived area with many of the social issues you describe including high numbers of refugee children straight from war zones.

I agree teacherwith2kids , we were not fortunate to take our students from a successful primary school. They were utterly failed by their primary and arrived to us with very poor literacy, numeracy and behaviour skills. Ironically judging by value added we were doing very well with them, because they achieved so little at the primary school.

Teacherwith2kids I agree also with your point on identifying teachers who need to develop certain skills.

Mrz that is a fair point, I trained at a school on one of the poorest areas in London, it had far better behaviour than other schools with a more middle class intake .

" Not where the NMers middle class high income earners live and the ones who bang on about there being no problems." I disagree one of the worst schools for behaviour I ever worked in was very leafy suburb, middle class highly educated parents (mostly children of lecturers or doctors )... and one of the best in terms of ethos was in a very deprived area with many of the social issues you describe including high numbers of refugee children straight from war zones.

Excepting children from war zones or other refugees whose problems tend to be different and specific, the main factor in cases like the middle class school you describe is surely the quality of senior management and the support they give their staff?

I have worked in tough schools, and like others, felt I had given as much as I was able to give when I left. I felt sympathy with the children who had hard little lives, but no longer had the energy to deal with their issues when I had my own children.

I also worked in a school that had the best results at GCSE in a very successful LEA. There was no comparison between bahaviour at the schools, but the assumption from senior management that there was no discipline problem meant that there were no effective strategies for the low level disruption that occurs almost everywhere.

Although the strategies EvilTwins describes at her school are obviously supportive and effective, what she describes when she has to pause to deal with a pupil who is behaving in a way that means his remaining in the lesson is untenable, is exactly what I would term time wasting, low level disruption which disturbs the pace and engagement of the lesson and is very wearing.

In response to the question about teachers having to take tougher tests, the answer is: ABSOLUTELY!

I have seen, first hand, how some primary school teachers are oblivious to the rules of grammar and punctuation, and then wonder why their pupils do not do well in SATs or secondary entrance test writing assessments. I have seen teachers who do not know what a prepositional phrase is, or how to calculate ratio and proportion and percentages... With teachers like that, how on earth would the brighter cohort of the class ever reach their potential?

I have seen a lot in the press about how the most valued skill a teacher must have is to be 'inspirational' - this is all well and good, but a prerequisite to that must be that the teacher possesses top notch literacy and numeracy skills too!

I am not sure why Ronaldo seems to be taking all of this so personally and why he seems to be determined to come out of this the bigger , tougher teacher - but you are welcome to that crown

Arisbottle, you read far too many motivations into my post. It was simply description.

Jabed, I suspect you will always play the "my school was worse than your school" card

You are another one reading far too much into what I said. It was just description. I tend toward a rather pessemistic temprement and that is probably reflected there.

.

I hope 'pessemistic' what just a typo?

Oops...mine is a typo, lol! I meant to say: I hope that 'pessemistic' WAS just a typo...

Jabed, you specifically said "whilst I'm not going t

Ah! Hit send by accident.

Ronaldo - you specifically said "whilst i am not going to play mine is bigger than yours,probably tougher than Arisbottles"

Not sure how I can be reading anything into that - it seems pretty clear to me. Yet again, anything anyone else pulls you up on is their error.

Ronaldo I'm interested in what you say, it's good to have that perspective, and I see anger about what you're talking about but nothing personal or vindictive to other posters. Whereas I think there's been quite a lot of vindictiveness directed towards you.

Mrz: "with many of the social issues you describe including high numbers of refugee children straight from war zones."

Did you see the TV report on schools being set up for Syrian refugees in Turkey. Parents scratching around to find something, to set one up, very motivated, the children all in rows, behaving appropriately. Interesting in the light of what you say there.