Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

I agree Brycie but it was Jabed/Ronaldo who first mentioned having pupils who were refugees from war
"In that school I dealt with child prostitution , sexual abuse, children selling drugs, gangs, children coming into school hungry and filthy , physical abuse, children with parents in prison being passed around successive foster placements and children who were refuges from war."

what I was trying to say, and obviously failed to convey, was the fact that a child/children from war zones aren't something to be "dealt with" and in fact can be model pupils.

They can: the difference being that refugees from war in the UK will usually be totally displaced from their community group and be using a different language in addition to the emotional trauma. You can't ignore that.

In additional every other group he mentioned would seem to have potential for the need for behaviour management.

You obviously haven't worked with victims of abuse Brycie or ten year old boys who only a few months earlier were carrying automatic weapons and are now being told what to do by a "woman"

Mrz that was me, I did not mean to imply that such children were destined to be a behaviour concern and I am sorry if it came across that way. I meant that it was another possible challenge in the classroom, sometimes a pastoral challenge and sometimes a literacy challenge. I once had , in a class of very difficult boys, a girl who I think came came from Lebanon , who was both very bright and impeccably behaved. That same year I also taught a boy who was so disturbed by the constant sound of war that he would flip in class if he felt others were invading his space or being too noisy, sometimes the school bells acted as a trigger. He ended up stabbing someone in the school bus because he could not handle the noise.

No Arisbottle I was replying to Brcie

The quote in italics was me, not that it matters.

my apologies to jabed

"You obviously haven't worked with victims of abuse Brycie or ten year old boys who only a few months earlier were carrying automatic weapons and are now being told what to do by a "woman" "

You mean they don't need behaviour management? I'm saying they do. What are you saying?

Some people seem to tie themselves in knots trying not to agree with someone who has more traditionalist or conservative views or might like some of what Gove says. I mean, if people without those views say similar things, and they agree with them -- it becomes a contortionist act trying not to agree with the person with more traditionalist views. Even though they might be saying the same thing.

Brycie MOST kids need some level of "management" in the classroom. In my current yr11 class, I have a couple who would do very little if they weren't "managed" and at least one who would totally take over because she has so much interest, enthusiasm and knowledge, if she wasn't "managed". It is in no one' interest to NOT "manage" my classroom. I don't want to seem patronising, but you do appear to be under the impression that "classroom management" is purely about making sure the naughty kids get told off. It's far more complex than that. A well managed classroom is one on which every child, regardless of academic ability, social background etc can thrive.

No one's

EvilTwins: Arisbottle and raven have indicated I am over-estimating the problem and seem to want to minimalise it. You say that most children need behaviour management. So, which is it? As I say, conflicting messages.

"you do appear to be under the impression" - I'm not - HTH. Pls don't make that assumption again.

Just to help you out about where my thoughts are leading. I think you are disagreeing and self-contradicting and giving out conflicting messages because you don't want to agree with a non-teacher and you don't want to agree with someone who's got a more traditionalist view. (This doesn't really apply to Arisbottle who seems tremendously frank.) It doesn't matter what they say - you just want to disagree.

So, there you are, that's my inference based it on responses on this thread, and the evidence is building!

Behaviour management is not a "problem". It's an integral part of the job which a skilled teacher will do as part of the daily routine. It's complex and, if done well, is hardly even noticeable. Do I manage my own classroom? Yes, of course. It's nothing to do with being traditionalist. I don't have a problem with disruptive behaviour, because my classroom management is good. That's true whether I am teaching top set, bottom set or mixed ability. Do you suppose that only certain sorts of children need to be managed?

There are two different things being discussed, behaviour management which I do all day and disruption to lesson which is minimised. All of my lessons require me to manage behaviour and because I am quite good at my job the disruption is kept to a minimum.

I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to disagree with anyone because of a particular political or world view.

Now YOU are deliberately misunderstanding. I used the term "behaviour management" to talk about managing poor and disruptive behaviour. Until now we've been talking about poor and disruptive behaviour.

I think some people are trying to conflate those two things Arisbottle; when it's perfectly clear the problem is poor behaviour and disruption. To say everyone needs "behaviour management" is just specious, in terms of this conversation.

By YOU I mean EvilTwins not Aris.

"You mean they don't need behaviour management? confused I'm saying they do. What are you saying?"

I'm saying they are often ver compliant and well behaved to an extreme and no they don't always need behaviour management in class.

very

Brycie,

The thing is, the most effective management of poor and disruptive behaviour happens before it starts - in the general 'classroom management' and teaching of the teacher concerned.

In many lessons given by many teachers, even of the classes with the most potential for poor and disruptive behaviour, it doesn't happen - because the teacher has full command of the class from the moment they walk in, expectations are high, tasks are engaging, the 'history' of that teacher with that class is that misbehaviour is dealt with swiftly and effectively so nobody 'tries it on'.

[It's a bit like policing - effective policing of e.g. a large crowd leaving a football stadium is not 'effective punishment once a riot breaks out', it's the carefully planned anagement and observation of the crowd to make certain that no riot ever starts]

I teach my class day in, day out. They are a high-needs, high SEN class from a variety of challenging backgrounds. I have had to manage ACTUAL pooor and disruptive behaviour maybe once after the first week of term (after a couple of incidents in the first couple of days when chiuldren did 'try it on' and found out what heppens). On the other hand, a teacher who covers my PPA has only to walk into the room and take the register before she has to deal with about 5 simultaneous instances of poor behaviour - her classroom management is not very good (and she's therefore being moved to another class after half term, part of her performance anagement).

Same school, same discipline and behaviour 'systems', onbe teacher with good - but almost wholly invisible to the casual visitor to the classroom - class / behaviour management, another with less string skills in that area.

I suppose the point I'm making, Brycie, is that general 'classroom management' often makes specific 'behaviour management of poor and disruptive behaviour' unnecessary - the two are linked.

"ten year old boys who only a few months earlier were carrying automatic weapons and are now being told what to do by a "woman" - "often very compliant and well behaved to an extreme"

"a boy who was so disturbed by the constant sound of war that he would flip in class if he felt others were invading his space or being too noisy, sometimes the school bells acted as a trigger. He ended up stabbing someone in the school bus"

All children are different.

Children who disrupt in class should not be allowed to disrupt others' learning; the different reasons for their disruption can be addressed outside class if removal from class is not sufficient.

Apologies for typos!

Brycie - the trick is to stop children disrupting in class before they even start. Obviously in tandem with proper systems if they do, but really effective teachers of difficult classes mostly work preventatively not proactively.

Obviously the two are linked. What is, or has been, at issue is whether disruptive children should be removed from class or whether their behaviour should be managed in class to the detriment of others. This has been the issue for some time - if it's no longer the issue let me know.

Plainly if there's no issue of detriment then why remove from class? Plainly if you manage behaviour so that it never become detrimental then there's no issue to discuss.

If you want to say all behaviour is managed so that it doesn't become detrimental you are wrong obviously, so what's the point in lecturing me on how to manage behaviour so it doesn't become detrimental. It's like the bleedin' obvious.

If people think disruptive children should be left in class to the detriment of others you can always say so. We all speak English.

Brycie- are you determined to ignore everything that is being said? You are using the term "classroom management" erroneously. You said earlier that I want to argue because you are a non-teacher. Well, yes, actually. Because you are ill-informed. In fact, I would go as far as to say that you don't know what you are talking about. But then, why would you? You don't need to know this stuff. A number of us have explained that classroom management is about more than kicking the disruptive element out, and we have given examples of how it can, and does, work in schools. I stand by my non-traditionalist view that ALL children deserve a good education. And that includes those who may, at times, and for whatever reason, disrupt lessons. Kicking them out and claiming not to care what happens to them (I know that wasn't you, Brycie) is plain wrong. OFSTED expects the needs of EVERY child to be met. Believe me, a teacher who simply sends any disruptive kids out of class when being observed by OFSTED would get short shrift.