Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

My school used to have a behaviour manager who would take disruptive students to an isolation room. She is no longer employed at my school. She was by far the softest member of staff- kids would go directly to her rather than go to lessons they didn't fancy going to, and she would let them. She did nothing to improve the behaviour of the students at all. She was also pretty expensive. I suspect the suggestion of either SLT or a specific behaviour person would come down to money in most schools in the end. Having a senior manger monitoring an electronic system would mean that whoever was on duty wouldn't be able to do anything else at that time, which would prove impractical.

No they wouldn't do anything else. They would monitor the registers and respond.

But that's the point. Whatever system you use, in schools where behaviour is a big issue, you need someone delegated to trouble-shoot. All day. That's what it takes to support the teachers and pupils, whatever it costs.

If you try to cut corners, you will probably be ineffective and store up problems for the future.

I do a register on Excel each lesson.

Somewhere near the start of the lesson, I open the spreadsheet (if in own teaching room, all are opened during tutor time so as not to waste any lesson time), put 'p' in the top kid's box, which turns that cell green for 'present', & drag the 'p' box down the entire column.

I then glance around room (I know my seating plans off by heart) & over-write any absentees with 'a' which turns them red. If they wander in later, I change that to 'l' (late) & their cell turns blue.

I could certainly add a yellow ('b' for 'bloody nuisance' maybe), but I usually do the register once the students are working independently - I don't like to waste time calling a register, & besides it buggers up my exciting starter - so SLG would have to be constantly monitoring 50+ classes in order to watch out for the yellows.

How often do you think they might check each class, in a 50 minute lesson?

It's a good idea in theory. In practice, if my classroom behaviour management isn't working - rare - I send a red card to the office & SLG/Behaviour Manager are there in 5 minutes.

It would cost too much. That's the bottom line. It's not a sensible use of senior teachers, but a couple of us have experienced what happens if a non-specialist is put in that role. And Raven is right- that's a hell of a lot of registers to track. We have an electronic system for logging poor behaviour- it alerts a pastoral support person who then contacts the student's home and arranges for them to stay for a detention after school that day. It's not instant though- what if two or three students are kicking off simultaneously at opposite ends of the school - one person couldn't cover that.

Yes it's the instant response that is needed most. What worries me is the amount of time it takes to alert the office; plus the child who is sent there misses part of the lesson. And the fact that you have done that sends a message to the rest of the class that you can't cope on your own.

The thing about the register alert system is that the child would be told 'You are now on yellow/red alert' as a matter of fact, and no blame would be attached to the teacher. What is needed, imo/e, is a school-wide policy, not just 'one T is struggling, let's help him/her' - always with the subtext that it is partly his/her fault for not coping.

Well, whether or not it would work, the point is that the SMT do need to be on hand to show support. And that the threat (in the case of the yellow alert) that someone would be checking up on you at some point during the day, plus that your parents would get a note, might be enough to prevent further (minor) bad behaviour.

When I was teaching (Modern Languages) at secondary school, the head was like a large, black spider who only ever ventured out of her den to glare at passersby. No use at all.

Haven't read the whole thread but here's what I have always said - just because you are good at something doesn't mean you are good at imparting that knowledge to others. My DH tried to teach me how to do something on excel. He showed me and said you do this and this and this. Then he expected me to know it. You'll be glad to know he's not a teacher. I am a good historian, but a fantastic, enthusiastic, knowledgeable (but always still learning), caring, hardworking and patient history teacher. I could go on... (you get the idea)

I am related to the head of a very challenging school. He and his senior leadership team constantly prowl the corridors. I know he has a 'hit list' of classrooms where there might well be difficulties each lesson - either because of the cohort or the teacher or the nature of the lesson - and simply visits them in turn. Any miscreants get hauled out of class to accompany him as he moves on to the next class. He never sits in his office during the school day.

Tbh, irritate me two lessons running & your parents will be getting an email! From me. Explaining exactly what you did wrong & inviting a dialogue with your parents as to how we sort it. Much more effective than a generic 'your dc was a pain today in English'

I have one year 11 boy who is now toeing the line because he knows that I'll email his mum before he's made it to his next class. & he'll have a furious text from her by break/lunch & she'll be collecting him at 3.15, forget about hanging out with his mates at the park...

Your yellow card system would see the same kids getting automated notes quite frequently - parents quickly get desensitised to/resentful of standard notifications of poor behaviour. Bear in mind that the child with behaviour issues may well come from a chaotic home background with parents who loathed school themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the appeal. But I'm not a big fan of depersonalised behaviour management - clear boundaries & sanctions, yes.

But ultimately, if someone hates school, sees no point in attending, & is fully aware that they'll be leaving without useful qualifications - they aren't going to suddenly co-operate because they're scared of an automated complaint from school to home. The price to be paid doesn't outweigh the 'reward' of disruption.

True, Raven. I think your speedy email system sounds very much more effective. Especially if it involves a parent collecting a child from school!

But ime, most parents work, and wouldn't be able to do that. And others aren't contactable that way. Still, even if it works for only a few, it's still worth it.

But the other thing is, how long does it take you to write the email? And what if there were two or three of them playing up? I never had time even to go to the loo between finishing one class and setting up for another. No way would I have been able to email parents.

Also, it does depend on the subject - how much time in class you would get to email parents.

Solo, at my school, we have a 3 strikes system. If a child is disrupting, I write his/her name on my C1 list. This can be "worked off" or, if the child continues to disrupt, moved up to a C2. If it gets to C3, they are taken to a partner class. If there is a lesson in the room next door, it's simple. If not, then I email reception and someone comes to collect the disruptive child. I then log the C3 on the system and a member if support staff contacts home to arrange the detention. It works well enough. It's also personal, which is good. If, for example, a child with known issues gets to a C2, I can email the support dept and they can be removed then, rather than risk a meltdown. Also, it NEEDS to be about the teacher. If a child is ONLY playing up for one member of staff, it's useful to know that, so it can be addressed.

Sounds like a good system, EvilTwins, and I agree it is sometimes about the teacher.

Tracking a child throughout the school day would also help you find out if there were any issues with a particular teacher. And you would be nearer to discovering the child's triggers/patterns of behaviour, etc - which helps.

I do like the idea of 'partner classes'. That would have helped me a lot when I was a probationer.

The main thing that seems to be coming out of this thread now is the need for effective discipline and class management strategies, which won't be affected in the slightest by Gove's plans.

I should have said 'helped' rather than affected.

Yes, I'd agree with that.

You need to be able to teach, so you need to be able to teach engaging, relevant lessons & remove disruptive students. Belt & braces.

You don't necessarily need to be amazingly academic (certainly outside of your own subject).

Fishcock Gove knows less about teaching than I do about taxidermy.

ron: so was this top sixth form that you attended fee-paying? And did your parents pay fees?

If it gets to C3....I email reception and someone comes to collect the disruptive child.

Why should other children have to wait until itgets to C3? That's putting the interests of the disruptive chld above the interests of the non disruptive child.l

LaVolcan: still it might help all those mumsnetters who complain about their teachers' poor spelling. Do you think that is a goo dthing or a bad thing,

Ronadlo you were rather jumped on there.

As someone who wants to be a primary teacher, I still say a resounding yes to this issue!!

My son's year 2 teacher last year set some home work along the lines of so and so had x about of pens, blah blah had 3 times as many and many did they have altogether. I can't remember the exact quantities now but I'd helped him with this part of his homework and am quite confident in my maths abilities so was quite shocked to see it marked wrong.

I took it back to the teacher and she was adamant that she was right and the question was worded to be confusing. But checked with the head of year 1/2 and she agreed with the teacher - I was a bit perplexed because I wondered how a year 2 would work that out if it was the way it was written but went with what they were saying.

Monday morning rolled round and the teacher (who by the way was about 26 so only a few years into teaching) took me aside, apologised profusely and said they'd thought about it some more and realised I had been right and teachers ARE only human and mistakes were made.

This was basic key stage 1 maths!!

Think the question was A had 4 pencils, B had 3 times as many, how many did they have altogether?

Still, his teacher last year was fantastic, DS made brilliant progress and continues to be way above his expected levels,

Brycie, other children do not have to wait.

In a well-managed classroom, I will be maybe talking to the whole room '...so what effect does the h-alliteration give? - John, first warning, OK, don't prod him - yes James?'

...then 5 minutes later, as students are working in books, I see John knocking someone else's pencil case on the floor '...pick that up, second warning, OK? See me at the end'.

It seldom goes beyond that - if it does, he's timed out. Any argument about that, I send someone to the office to let them know he needs removing.

It's no more disturbing the studies of the other students than my moving around desks when they're working, chatting about how I'll be seeing Jake in the school play that night or telling Amy her homework was particularly impressive.

Yes, you get the odd total meltdown, but the more usual scenario is '...Sarah, can you nip down to the office with this Red Card? Thanks' whilst the student to be Red Carded sulks at his/her desk.

I haven't needed to have a student removed in 18 months. It's not a daily occurrence!

Is your class typical? It sounds like there are no serious behaviour problems in schools if your class is typical.

It's typical of the classes I teach, as an established & experienced teacher at a successful comprehensive.

I had a horrible year 11 class last year - nice enough individually, but the dynamic wasn't great. 24 boys, 3 girls, 'able but idle' set, mostly afternoon lessons.

We have a 'hotspot' timetable - I put these guys on it - we had regular 'drop ins' from SLG, who would quietly wander in to do some marking at a desk in the corner.

It's not rocket science. Supportive SLG & consistent behaviour policy, plus good teaching.

Despite what some posters would like you to believe most lessons pass without incident.