Children arrive at school incapable of learning

[Brycie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

Gabsid, smug much?

I think you will find most of a child's development is down to....its brain!

Hate smug posts about reading , I m thrilled that DD will actually look at a book these days, yes, glance for a second. House is full of them, I go to.bookshops and dream of reading with her.

Just leave it Gabsid. [eye roll] It's not about your DS. It's a larger concern.

I am a bit surprised nobody has yet mentioned educating young people before they become parents.

I will admit my ignorance here, I have little idea what and how much is taught in schools these days on the subject - only that there was virtually nothing said during my own school days except about contraception.

But many of the things that have been raised here seem to me as though they could be helped, if not entirely solved (as a longer-term measure obviously) by some good intervention with older schoolchildren - boys and girls, from all backgrounds - covering basics of parenting, babies'/children's needs, what is or is not normal, how to access help, and of course linking up with the "how not to make babies" sessions they get already, if they decide this all sounds too much like hard work!

I would like to think (again, maybe being a bit idealistic here) this could help in at least some cases with:

• Those (of both sexes!) who don't mean to become parents and/or can't be bothered to put the work in to make a good job of it, but haven't thought through the consequences and work/disruption/money involved enough to seriously try and avoid pregnancy (disclaimer - I know accidents can happen even with contraception, but this might at least avoid some of those that happen without it!)
• Those who would like to be good parents but just have very little idea how to go about it (such as those who haven't had good role models themselves)
• Those who think they do know it all, but may be honestly ignorant that children need to be talked/read to regularly or encouraged to do things themselves, for example
• Those who end up needing support later, if they can be made aware that there are services out there to help
• Those who will have SN children, if it can help them identify sooner that there is actually something wrong, by having some more idea of what is normal; and also by giving them some ideas of where to get help.

I know this is easier said than done of course (money issues and so on), and of course it would never work for everyone, but wouldn't it be a good start?

Starlight What I'm scared of most here, is the ripening of the country for a servant class who deserve their place as such, with very little in the way of rights or resources to change things and any intervention being delivered on the terms of the oppressors to keep them in their place with low expectations of themselves and of others

oh yes 1000x this.

Read any of the welfare reform/tax credit threads and the obsessive harking back to a better age (the Victorian? Where 70% of the population were in what we would certainly now call poverty, most of them illiterate, etc?) where the poor (and in some posters cases, women) KNEW THEIR PLACE and it was not to reproduce, or consume. It was to serve.

The present may be pretty awful but the future is looking worse, with that mentality dominant.

And to all those who think their wonderful children all down to them... explain my youngest to me if you will! Manic depressive mother, separated and in bitter divorce battle, etc etc. Chaotic I guess though have always worked and v v hard (so probably also 'neglectful'). Ds2 didnt' talk until 3 and I could not get him out of nappies either. Several accidents at nursery when starting out and he still occasionally has them (he is 5). Was in a world of his own until about 6 months ago when he suddenly seemed to wake up, I can't describe it any other way.

He is now talking like a little old man bless him and in great detail, describing things interestingly, reading everything, writing 6 page xmas lists to Santa (!(!) and appears to have shot to 'top of the class' from direct bottom a year ago. Is meticulous with his homework, goes back to it when he remembers something he forgot to do :D

So am I 'responsible' for this? Or for his earlier 'underattainment'?

The fact is he was a detached eccentric kid in his own world. We no longer seem to have a concept of variation in children. And a bizarre idea they should all act like little Victorian paragons from age 2, which no doubt never happened anyway.

The DM had an article on this some time ago. Since time began there have been neglectful parents and subsequently difficult children and there will always be an element of that and the state cannot assume the role of the parent.
Some people should not have children and no amount of coaching is going to change their appalling child rearing.

I would think that a state sponsored pre school attendance (mandatory) would help things but that is just pushing the problem downstream really and making pre school deal with it

'I would think that a state sponsored pre school attendance (mandatory) would help things but that is just pushing the problem downstream really and making pre school deal with it'

I can't see that would help the huge numbers of children with SN who are failed by their preschool setting and who have parents who recognise this quick enough to remove their child and work with them at home instead.

Statements and funding can take YEARS and until the paperwork goes through preschools are left with nothing but pats on the head, after all, so what if a 3 year old is throwing chairs, you're bigger than them.

The problem I see is that even if children are recognised as having SNs as young as preschool (and I'm not convinced that in anything less than extreme circumstances they ARE recognised!), the GPs refuse to refer.. the parents still cannot get the help and support and assessment needed. Even though all research shows that earlier intervention is best... children are still denied needed support and assessment because of the "wait and see" attitude as well as condescension from GPs who trot out the "children develop at different rates."

Our SENCO told us that there is a big influx of children generally referred for further assessment around Yr1/Yr2, as that's when more significant delays and SNs can really be apparent. Until then, even though the parent may insist something is not quite right, lots of schools and GPs simply chalk it up to poor parenting, even though it frequenly isn't that.

mindosa - mandatory state sponsored nursery/pre-school attendance wouldn't be a bad idea for those families who struggle and do not manage to look after their children, its usually those who go on having more and more. They are usually known to HV/Social Services anyway.

At the same time courses/initiatives could be offered to help the parents to manage parenting and housekeeping - but I know, in some cases this wouldn't be enough either.

"it is societal and institutional neglect"

they are born into families and not taken away at birth

I'm a bit baffled by this comment, Brycie.

Not as clear cut.I know of a couple where both are research scientists and there child has struggled at school.Grandparent funding a private school now and child seems to have dyslexia.Parents will not even read with him for the suggested 15 minutes per night.

their!

Not reading with a child for 15 mins a night doesn't cause dyslexia

I know that.My point is.The parents...whilst having had decent education themselves are not prepared to help their child.Hence Grandparent exasperation.
It is not all down to parents who are ill educated etc etc etc

Doobydoo - but I am sure that child lives in a fairly ordered house with parents who speak with a good vocabulary, the child sees them reading/writing, working ... as opposed to parents who watch TV all day, don't read, work have no routines, speak simple, bad English.

I think that child will still take plenty from his parents.

I also know a family, none of them is qualified below Phd level and mum thinks most of the developmental stuff is genetic, so there isn't much point in fussing too much. Their DS's behaviour was terrible until age 6 and now he slowly seems to calm down and is catching up in school too (August birthday). I think he will get there eventually.

Ouryve: sorry! it was a response to someone who said it wasn't parental neglect but institutional neglect.

I rad to my DS practically from birth on a daily basis...starting with those cloth picture books. Despite this he was well over 8 years old before he could read. It turns out that his autism is also accompanied by ADHD but within three months of starting medication for the ADHD he had mastered reading for the first time ever.

I think Mr Gove is partly right but personally I would like to ask him how many children start school in nappies...I am guessing he will not be able to reply. Not saying it doesn't happen but I suspect it's not common outside of a child with SN.

There is definitely too much anecdote spouting and not enough presentation of the actual facts going on in the article and coming out of Gove's mouth. I think it's appalling that decisions and statements appear to be being made on the back of the opinions of people who haven't actually done any research, or who don't feel it worth the effort to share the actual research with the general public.

"DS is not a good listener, he doesn't like books, he hates reading and writing in any language and day-dreams his way through school."

Do you put this also down to your parenting, gabsid? Has my daughter, who loves reading, had better parenting than your ds?

It is true that some high-achieving (but arrogant) parents seem to forget (or not realise) that their success is not just down to their brilliant genes and their own hard work, and that their parents helped them along quite a bit when they were young. And that they need to do the same if their own children are to achieve as much as they have.

I don't think those are the parents Gove is thinking of, though, Bonsoir!

I agree that they are not the main issue! But sloppy parenting can occur in all segments of society.

Sloppy parenting can indeed occur in all segments of society, as can odd behaviours and an unusual pattern of development. It seems to me that part of the problem is the rather smug assumption of an awful lot of people that parenting of ANY child is pretty straightforward and natural and that only someone really obtuse or abusive could have any serious difficulty with it.

rabbitstew - I agree that the assumption that parenting ought to be straightforward and not require much thought or effort is smug. It is also an argument that is very convenient, as it allows parents to pursue their own interests and the state to pay little attention to children.