Children arrive at school incapable of learning

[Brycie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

O Ok if you want a competition Catrin 3 out of 4 of mine with differing medical SEN diagnosed conditions, 7 SEN tribunals and 3 statements oh and the 1 out of the 4 A star student - so how did that happen from a obviously chaotic homelife that must have caused the other 3's SEN?? Luck or Flaw?

THere is a huge difference between a developmental delay and SEN. Children with a developmental delay are able to bridge the gap at some point if they have early intervention and good support - children with SEN may, but as they have different needs may not do so as quickly, easily or ever. I was not implying any point scoring at all, wasuup - and at this point will leave you to your arguing.

Oh and what is lets see Autism for example? Oh yes a pervasive developmental delay.

I'm surprised you do not see the early intervention and good support required for a child with developmental delay as SEN, and given that you don't why therefore, as a SEN Adviser you are working with them and going into their homes

Yes it is a mystery that we won't get and answer to starlight.......

*an

Well, I did not get what Gove proposes after all. Taking children out of families, if a family does not prepare children to school? Haha, I'd like to watch that. The true cure for the problem is state-paid childcare in Scandinavian fashion, but he would rather die than admit that.

I saw it on my generation. I grew up in a quite unusual industrial town, where many parents had to send their children to their grandparents up to school age. SAHMs were non-heard of. Guess among whom were more children arriving to school "not being able distinguish a letter from a number" - among "creche children" of working mums (creches were paid for by the industrial giant, the largest employer in the town) or "grannies' children".

THere is a huge difference between a developmental delay and SEN. Children with a developmental delay are able to bridge the gap at some point if they have early intervention and good support - children with SEN may, but as they have different needs may not do so as quickly, easily or ever.

Interesting statement. So where does DDelay start and finish with SEN? After years of bad parenting of course.

Developmental Delay can be seen as just that in the beginning and the child progresses a little but relapses or cannot get any further. Nappies still worn due to sensory issues etc But oh the parent is pressured and blamed despite telling services there is an issue with their child. Years on its confirmed diagnosis of Autism or adhd or whatever.

Sorry Mum...Dad we got it wrong it wasnt your fault after all...

D Delay is still an educational need.

What I'm scared of most here, is the ripening of the country for a servant class who deserve their place as such, with very little in the way of rights or resources to change things and any intervention being delivered on the terms of the oppressors to keep them in their place with low expectations of themselves and of others.

The level of predjudice/stereotyping being proudly proclaimed by some "professionals" as "Knowledge" on this thread is truly frightening.

There's an old joke my mother (a special needs teacher with 40 years experience) used to tell - "If you come from Hampstead you are dyslexic, & if you come from peckham you are just thick". It seems that is still the public "truth". No wonder so she's angry about the sheer waste of human potential in the UK.

How can anyone claim to care enough about children to make a career out of working with them confidently declare "it's too late" at FOUR? In many countries that incidentially score far higher in the International educational league tables, children won't even START school for another 3 years. Homeschooling is rising at an exponential rate each year, amongst ordinary families & I can see why.

I have one sibling who was a straight A student, the other had a serious neurological disability. The one with the disability required infinately more parenting expertise, dedication and attention to achieve 1/10th of the A student. Any fool could have raised the A* child - all she needed was 3 meals a day and access to a library.

We are heading straight back to the dark ages at a headlong pace it seems, judging by the views expressed on this thread. It paints a very bleak picture for UK society 2 decades into the future.

incidently I have two dcs extremely bright, one already 2 years ahead of herself at 11 and already planning Uni. 3rd DS autistic/adhd. And the SENCO was useless, non understanding, new nothing of SNs or SEN apart from the protocols with a one size fits all. Was also the HT and was useless there too.

Is my home chaotic? Hell yes but that doesnt stop my other 2 dcs does it.

I think Mr Gove needs to look at the schools understanding first. But he wont as I emailed him and he CBA because it was one of his precious academies so it didnt matter that quite a few children are being let down by the school system.

And 'raw material' is some kind of sop to those who HAVE, that justifies it on the basis of superiority of some kind, genetic or god given.

It also fits in nicely with why state schools can be allowed to become ghettos.

Wassup that gives you experience of exactly 4 children. Not exactly a huge sample size!

Social Eugenics at it's most stark Star.

"raw material" yep great name.

There is a post on here where DCs are referred to as "it" something along the lines of when "it" gets a label.

Disordered attachment can look very similar to ASD and is caused by external factors often including parenting. The neurological impact does take place early on and it is difficult if not impossible to reverse so yes for some children age four it will be too late to prevent the harm, all you can do is manage the symptoms.

I was there, Gove did not say this. A pro-Tory Head Teacher stood up and asked a pre-arranged question. He said that he had spoken to some primary teachers who suggested this was a problem in their schools. After a moment's righteous indignation, Gove indicated that turning primaries into academies might solve the problem by offering children like this a better start in life.

So don't believe everything you read in the newspapers. It was a politically motivated rant, based on third hand anecdotal information, not a substantive statement of fact supported by evidence.

This talk of social eugenics is hysterical. Totally ridiculous. There IS a problem with children not being prepared well for school...and life in general. There IS one.

It's due to far more complex reasons than parental neglect...but in some cases that IS a factor and to deny this is stupidity.

There is no denying the rise in SEN that the world...note...the WORLD... has seen in recent years...and yes...some of that is down to things being understood more, but the figures are startling.

One in FIVE children now considered to have SEN? Why so many?

Attachment Disorder is not just caused by parenting(noted poster said often and not IS :)). It can also be mistaken as being this when infact it is ASD instead and the attachment is anxiety based.

I agree some of the symptoms are similar and so close both should be considered along side before looking at parents only.

I just got this awful sad feeling that schools are going to use this as an excuse to delay/ignore valid help for children that need it due to SEN by passing the buck to other services. Not all maybe but quite a few.

ASD is diagnosed far more often that attachment disorders are in my experience. Some parents are much happier to have an autism diagnosis than one of attachment disorder,

There IS a problem with children not being prepared well for school...and life in general. There IS one.

Because sadly there is lack in early intervention when the parent goes and expresses concerns when the child is at a very young age (sometimes younger than 2) Parents get fobbed off with being over protective, over anxious, loopy or seeing things that are not there.

Years go by and still no help.

Some SEN cannot be confirmed till the child is of school age and mixing with peers due to more social pressure.

SALT (speech and lang) have long waiting lists where some children are not even seen till school or are non existent and over subscribed in some areas.

There is a lot more the government can do services wise than blame the parents.

Not saying there are those that neglect. But they could start by helping the ones that are asking for it too might just cut their problem of "raw material" in half with early support for SEN/SN instead of cutting everything.

One of the reasons is that they are starting school up to a year earlier than in the late 1940s, for example, and certainly a lot earlier than the rest of Europe. If they started at 6 nobody would be fretting about toilet training or reading like this.

This is why some children enter school with developmental delay as a diagnosis because other factors for a more indepth diagnosis needs to be done during school years iyswim.

Are there not enough SALT's to go around? Or are the authorities not creating positions for them?

No there are not enough SALTS to go round. At least not in my area and other counties have mentioned the same.

Bearing in mind quite a bit of time is spent waiting for a pead referral who quite often reviews 6 months down the line and then another with a wait and see approach because some children are faster or slower than others. Eventually when you get on the list for a salt the child can well be over 2.

Also some salts if they sense ASD will say they cannot help anyway and so there will be another waiting list which would either be back to the pead or on to someone else. You can be stuck waiting for a very long time.