Children arrive at school incapable of learning

[Brycie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

my nephew was close on 4 before he was even seen by one and he didnt speak a word. By the time he had the official appointment to start working on it he started speaking short words and then full on by the time he was 5.

He has a good home btw and our family talked him to death to get a response :)

I've never heard of parents being given a choice of diagnosis.

The highest rates of attachment disorders occur in children who have been hospitalised for long periods of time in infancy here in the UK. That's nothing to do with the quality of parenting, so no viable reason for one diagnosis to be preferred over another. Indeed considering that the two conditions often require quite different theraputic and educational approaches from different professional areas of expertise over the long term - there is a very strong argument to be had for why only the correct label should be applied to describe any disorder.

All children now have free state nursery places at 3. The whole foundation stage curriculum was originally designed to give kids the skills needed to thrive at school by skilled and qualified providers. If children are not learning the skills needed in a timely manner do we need to reassess what is taught in these settings?

The Tories have recently suggested lowering the adult:child ratio & qualification requirements for childcare providers of nursery aged children, as a way to reduce costs. Is anyone concerned that this may have an impact on school readiness.

(Playing devils advocate here as I was really happy with the provision at my only child's nursery).

If they go on vocabulary at age 3, my DS2 should not be achieving anything. At 3yo, he was non verbal.

By 9yo and Y4, he is currently working on lvl 3 Maths, lvl 2 reading, lvl 1 writing. He can talk and hold a conversation, and uses words like 'regurgitate' in everyday conversation, with correct meaning etc.

His development was not delayed because of any lack of parenting, but through disabilities that were NOT all dxd before he started YR. Some were, not all.

If it was parenting problems causing my 1st DC (who got 4 years of my undivided attention) and my 3rd DC (who obviously didn't, granted, but still got 2 hrs a day where it was solid interaction 1-2-1, through Physio, OT, proprioception and SALT excercises) - then how do you explain the fact that my second DC, in between the two, was on the G&T register at 2.5yo at preschool, and is currently at age 10yo working at around 3-5 years ahead of their peer group in all areas?

But with my first DC, even the class teachers and SenCo blamed her issues on my 'poor parenting' due to my age, until they had personal dealings with my second DC, who was 4 years younger.

So yes, these issues CAN be blamed (unfairly) on 'poor parenting'. And a good parent trying to get help for their DC's delays can be labelled as a 'nuisance parent' because they are trying to get the early intervention (that costs money) that their DC needs.

With my youngest DC, who has just been dxd with hyperactivity, it has been plain to see from a very young age (months rather than years) that he has different issues to my other DC's. I first spike to the HV about it when he was 5mo. It was only when he was 20mo that he saw the Paed and got a dx. He has already been referred to the EP and SALT. Why so much quicker than with my first DC? I suspect because I am not 16yo any more (I am much a bit older, at 31), I have 'shown' that it isn't my parenting, because DS1 disproves that.

He has also got severe food allergies. These were first noted when I had to eliminate them from my diet while BF when he was just 8wo. It has taken until today, when he is 21mo, for him to see the allergist and get a full dx of severe CMP allergy, severe nut allergy and moderate soy allergy through skin prick testing.

That is 19 months of fighting the NHS for a basic test that takes 15 minutes, and on the basis of which I have now been provided with life saving equipment for him (Jext pens).

If these appointments were not so bloody hard to come by, I could have started interventions much sooner.

God yes with SALT appointments. My DS2. Was non verbal at his 2yr check, I asked for a referral to SALT. Got put on waiting list. Waited until AFTER he started SCHOOL at 4y10m for 1st appointment.

A total of 2y10m on waiting list.

First appointment "Oh, we can't see him, he's obviously got Autism, you need an SN SALT. We don't have one. Not much we can do. You've done more with his speech than we ever could have. Could you give us any advice on how you have done it with a DC with no eye contact?"

That was the sum total of his NHS provided SALT.

Starlight - "Are we all too stupid now to see what to me is a frigging obvious piece of government propaganda keeping the population soft for more cuts to the vulnerable."

I'm struck by this. So you think this does not happen? There are echoes of this through the thread, dismissing the problem. Who do you think you are helping when you pretend it doesn't happen?

Boffin - how interesting you were there! Do you also think the problem doesn't exist.

Maybe this is part of the problem, that some people don't want to admit it happens.

As an ex HV I can say for certain that problems like this exist. I see the TV being used as a babysitter, I have seen children sat in play pens all day, I have seen children ignored and not stimulated. In all those families other problems were prevalent and the children suffered as a result. So think domestic violence, overcrowding, mental health issues etc etc. it is little wonder the children in these families reach school totally unprepared. These families don't welcome advice or support very easily and it needs lots of work and time to get to know them in order to try and make a difference to the children. Most HVs don't have that time although things are changing.

Like the rest of the population a small proportion of these children will also have SEN their SEN not caused by their home life not helped by it either. I have seen children in these families diagnosed with ADHD and their parents expecting medication to be a "magic pill" without realising that it still takes time, patience and parenting skills they don't have. They are often not able or willing to attend any form of parenting support.

I am a huge fan of Children's Centres but in many ways they have failed to reach the "hard to reach" families, that small core of troubled families in which the children have such a poor start in life. This is not for want of trying and some fantastic work going on .

Scarahscreams , it shocks me that you work in Reception and described kids with obvious SN in a shocked way and in the context of this thread about parenting..really scary post

Edgar Allen, I agree with this

"is there not a general change in ethos, in that encouraging children to do for themselves is seen as 'pushy; and people now will say 'they'll get it in their own time' about everything, even those things which may require plenty of assistance and encouragement for a child to learn?"

I've seen it in conversations about not judging people whose children are in nappies aged nearly 4 because you just have to wait until the child is "ready"

Picking up Ronaldo's point about there being an age below which children don't need to be socialised, I'd completely and wholeheartedly agree. I think the idea that they "need to be socialised" from a few months up came out of necessity - ie it has to happen, working mothers, childcare, so let's not feel so bad about it.

However, firstly, it does need to happen, secondly, don't underestimate the quality of childcare that can be offered, and thirdly when you have families so neglectful that 4 yos eat dinner like dogs and don't know how to use the loo then it's got to be better to remove them from the neglectful parenting for large parts of the day, surely.

Intervention with the children via the parents is much slower than direct intervention with the children. Intervention with the children via the parents via money is even more uncertain in terms of outcome.

The troubled famlies initiative does involve direct help int he most basic way, going to people's houses, getting them up at the right time, showing them how to organise breakfast and getting dressed, walking with them to school, showing them how to have a conversation with a child. I think think sounds very positive.

Part of the problem IMO is that they focus so much on "it's parenting" that they do not take into account that a lot of it MIGHT be SEN/SNs. Many children do not even begin assessment for SEN/SNs until they are school age, so that means from approximately age 2 to 4, parents are often fighting constantly to get a medical professional to refer them for further assessment.

We have 4 children - DS1, DD, DS2, and DS3. We went in repeatedly to GPs (different ones within the surgery) to ask for referrals for DS2 as he had obvious developmental delays and we had serious concerns about him. We were fobbed off for two years - "boys are slower than girls" "all children develop at a different rate" - offered parenting classes (note that we didn't have these problems with DS1 or DD, so not sure how they thought we were parenting DS2 differently?), and just told we were being paranoid.

By the third day of reception, we were referred to the senco in DS2's school, and the school nurse got us a referral to paediatrician, because our GP again refused referral to paed, even though she stated that DS2 was "clearly not normal." This is a GP who told us a couple times that we were being paranoid and that he was just fine as recently as 6 months previous.

DS2 is now in a specialist school (after 2 years of mainstream school with FT 1:1 TA) and thriving. But I still am angered by the fact that we lost TWO YEARS that he could have been receiving assistance through SALT and OT and making more progress.

And I know there are lots of other parents that have gone through the same things. Until they start making better steps to identify AND assist children with SEN/SNs at a younger age, it's just going to continue to be an exercise in bashing the parents about their parenting and wasting precious years for those children.

The conversations being had here don't appear to describe children with special needs but neglected children. I think you are trying to medicalise neglect, or excuse it, I don't know which. Your experience with your own children is largely different to what has been described on this thread.

Describing kids with SN is not 'medicalising or excusing neglect' in any way.

In fact, how very dare you!

Fangs the one particular child I mentioned may have SN but concerns raised to the parents were dismissed at this point. I am sure the a teachers will endeavour to get more 1:1 help. The others who cant eat, or dress themselves, ask for help I would not say have SN no. They have not been prompted and encouraged enough.
The actial named children so far in my class know how to eat with knife and fork, can articulate or at least try despite their additional needs, their parents write regularly in contact book and talk daily.

Parents are often in denial and dismiss concerns, doesn't mean the child doesn't have SN.

My child can't articulate or try despite her additional needs so please don't use that as some yardstick for "really" having SN, it could just mean their needs are more severe. I would say not being able to communicate at 4 is a definite red flag and not a sign of "neglectful parenting".

Trying to 'medicalise neglect'?!

No. Trying to point out that a lot of DC's entering Reception with these issues have as-yet undxd SN's.

Just because these DC's haven't yet got a full diagnosis, it does NOT mean that the parent hasn't been flogging themselves silly trying to get one.

Out of all the DC's I know with Autism (and I know quite a few), only ONE of their parents had the ostrich approach where they refused to accept their DC had SN until the school insisted on a diagnosis.

All of the others were fighting from when their DC's were toddlers to get help and early intervention.

The estate we live on has a particular issue that the ONLY SN Nursery in the town is inaccessible by public transport, because if you have an older DC to drop at school, and then have to catch two buses to get there, you have missed half an hour of the SN Nursery.

So, like my DS2, you may have identified SN's, be offered a place at a specified SN Nursery, with Portage workers and ABA trained staff, but be unable to take it up due to logistical issues.

Doesn't mean that you aren't engaging with services - it means that the SN Nursery isn't central enough in our town and we have to get our older DC's to school on time.

If the services were accessible to all, then the services would be far more likely to be used.

And if you live on our estate and cannot use the SN Nursery due to logistical problems, the LA washes it's hands of your DC in a 'standard' preschool, because you 'haven't engaged with their offer of support'. Despite the fact that you have an older DC to get to school on time, and no money to pay for before school childcare to enable you to meet both DC's needs effectively.

No you are not hearing me.
I do think the one particular child I mentioned in my first post has SN. Yes first try her parents said she was just "shy" and were in denial about what we reported. We will meet again with them and keep trying. I don't think she is SN because of her parents but it does make me wonder why they are not overly concerned at reports that she has spoken about 3 words since Sept is constantly glazed and confused. The others are a separate issue really.
These are children I work with every day who I change , feed and who come to me for comfort and help. I care what happens to them and I wonder and worry how they will catch up. Please don't be scared that I work with them.

As unpalatable as it is some children are negelcted.

She clearly very likely IS and her parents are in denial, that is extremely common.

wordfactory..are they really? wow, I am glad you told me that as I didn't realise

my very likely IS post was directed at Scarahscreams of course.

There is a named child in my class. Her needs are huge but the family is very engaged and supportive. They do a lot of work at home with her. She can read and write, eats very well and is coping as there are plans in place to help her specifically. She is making great strides over both the children whose parents are in denial or simply "neglectful".

I am engaged and supportive with my DD but it is unlikely she will ever read or write and eats with her hands etc.

Please don't view achieving milestones as a marker of parental interest and engagement, how awful for the parents who try their best but their child just can't do it..my DD is extremely hard to engage no matter how "engaging" i try to be.

or maybe it's a miracle and you have discovered the cure for SN..parental engagement..have a Nobel Prize

Sorry, you do sound like a kind and caring person but some of your posts do worry me.