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Education

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Children arrive at school incapable of learning

404 replies

Brycie · 24/10/2012 07:24

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

OP posts:
ScarahScreams · 25/10/2012 09:19

Well parental engagement is better that none and I believe a child will do better with than without. Is that honestly what we are debating here ?Hmm Interesting subject.

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:20

no..but don't attribute a child's "great strides" solely to parental involvement, some are more able than others

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:21

and I wouldn't go rolling your eyes at me, clearly we are on the same side, unless you think I am arguing a case for just ignoring and neglecting my DD?

I am the woman who writes about 4 pages in her school-home book every day Wink

ScarahScreams · 25/10/2012 09:25

Yes we are on the same side! I am glad you see that. I love 4 page notes Wink

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:27

I am just a bit worried for the parents like me whose kids don't progress through no fault of their own, I know how it feels for stuff to be blamed on people's bad parenting when it isn't, you see :)

BoffinMum · 25/10/2012 09:28

Brycie, I think the problem certainly does exist, but I imagine to a significantly smaller extent than Gove indicated, and sometimes the appearance of decline has more to do with the effective lowering of the school admissions age over the last 15 years. For Gove, it was used as a bandwagon to promote centralisation of the primary school system, which has absolutely nothing at all to do with domestic neglect of children.

Remember, he loves nothing more than a sound byte and a headline, being a journalist, so the term 'school children in nappies' is excellent for such purposes. Ask him actually precisely how many children this involves, in statistical terms, and you would not get an answer.

Interestingly, these debates over raising children and the neglect of poor children by their parents are age-old. 100 years ago people talked about 'bringing up the national child' as this was also a time when children were seen as a commodity, to help support the British Empire in that case. However the people who promoted this most heavily often had links to the Eugenics movement, so we should be wary of invoking such lines of argument. Maria Montessori also worked with children who were to a large extent unsocialised, from disorganised homes, and that was a primary motivation in her developing her set of educational theories (along with her experience of educating disabled children, of course, in her capacity as a medical doctor).

My own view, and that of people such as Kathy Silva etc (who did the research into early years education that underpins the free nursery hours we are all getting) is that the answer lies in structured early years education from around the age of two. There is a strong case for well-funded local nurseries, free for all children, so gentle socialisation starts early, informal learning starts early, and that children who come from a variety of homes mix together and the overall standard of socialisation drifts upwards over time. A generation on, this would pay dividends, as benchmarks would have been set for what you feed young children, what they should wear, when toilet training starts and so on, with the knowledge spreading around local communities in a helpful way.

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:28

do you really love them? DD's teacher wrote "Thanks, as always, for your very detailed response" and I wasn't sure if she was being sarcastic Grin

StarlightMcKenzie · 25/10/2012 09:28

'I'm struck by this. So you think this does not happen? There are echoes of this through the thread, dismissing the problem. Who do you think you are helping when you pretend it doesn't happen?'

I'm not pretending it doesn't happen. I come across neglected and abused children every day of my life, but it is societal and institutional neglect and abuse, not parental, at least, not at the beginning. Puting the blame in the parents is a PART OF that abuse.

StarlightMcKenzie · 25/10/2012 09:30

'ASD is diagnosed far more often that attachment disorders are in my experience. Some parents are much happier to have an autism diagnosis than one of attachment disorder'

Yes. of course. One of the questions during the long drawn-out multidisciplinary diagnostic process is always 'which diagnosis would you be happier with Mrs x?' Hmm

BoffinMum · 25/10/2012 09:30

Fangs, I have had a good dose of that prejudice, as one of mine had a bad developmental delay, and I was subject to all the lectures, usually from people who had a lot less in the way of child rearing ability, if I am brutally honest. I think I am still a bit scarred Angry. But if it's any comfort, a loving home and a happy school paid great dividends and he is now ahead of his age group in some respects, thanks to everyone's TLC.

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:34

Boffin..thanks for your post, it is good to know that someone understands! You will see why I find these threads somewhat challenging.

However DD's needs are too severe for her ever to be ahead in any respect, despite her loving home, it's a worry. She is starting to get a couple of words now at 6 so hoping she can acquire some basic speech and be able to dress and feed herself and have a happy and partially independent life :)

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:35

(her school is a fantastic supportive and happy special school also)

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:37

..and despite all these issues at 3/4 she could still be mistaken for a child who just didn't have a lot of parental input, as her issues have become more apparent as she gets older!

BoffinMum · 25/10/2012 09:43

Well Fangs, that is an achievement, and if you all keep on trucking it will surely pay great dividends. Do make sure she gets good access to music lessons, as this can be a good opportunity for some children in her position to experience success and inspiring creativity.

BoffinMum · 25/10/2012 09:45

Fangs, my DS2 went to school in nappies unable to talk Wink

All my fault, of COURSE!

FangsGoForTheMaidensThroat · 25/10/2012 09:46

Boffin..did you park him in front of Jeremy Kyle all day then? shame on you Grin

Yes she loves music, the main way I interact with her is with singing. They have a fantastic music teacher at school too.

StarlightMcKenzie · 25/10/2012 09:54

Due to the battles and difficulties with ds1, I parked DD in front of the tv all day so I could work with ds, whilst fending off accusations and parental blame for his problems.

DD somehow (never been taught explicitly) can dress herself, feed herself, make simple meals, has an extensive vocabulary, can tell people all about what combine harvesters do and even how they work, as well as how to perform a c/section. She can explain the storyline of Doctor Who, how to have an argument and make up again with a friend, how to change her bedding in the night if she has an accident and can tell you just exactly how much money she has stolen from DH's pockets in her little purse by counting it.

She is in nursery and cannot remember the last time I actually did anything other than 'process' her.

ouryve · 25/10/2012 09:55

Brycie, I think the problem certainly does exist, but I imagine to a significantly smaller extent than Gove indicated, and sometimes the appearance of decline has more to do with the effective lowering of the school admissions age over the last 15 years. For Gove, it was used as a bandwagon to promote centralisation of the primary school system, which has absolutely nothing at all to do with domestic neglect of children.

Nail on head.

No one is doubting that these problems exist. When my kids started school, language levels in the intake were, on average, poor and the free school meals level of the school was high. Because of this, they've been very accepting of my two (because, believe me, there are plenty of schools out there who wouldn't want their stats tained by them), BUT - DS2 is the only child they have who is non-verbal and still wearing nappies and struggles to feed himself.

And for all those with raised eyebrows - have you any idea how much work it took us to even get him to touch food to feed himself with his hands? Even OT gave up on him. We worked through it ourselves and still have to help him with food he can't stand touching.

Anyhow, Gove is looking at this data and presenting it with the spin that all these children are as limited as my DS2 (they're not) and that it's all down to poor parenting (it most definitely is not) - and then rather saying that it's a reason why we need to get more early intervention in the form of SALT and OT into primary schools, is saying that this means we need more academies to replace all those leftie liberal inner city primary schools which are equally to blame with the parents for sending children to secondary academies who will spoil their lovely places high in the league tables. THIS is what is annoying people.

StarlightMcKenzie · 25/10/2012 09:56

So you smug parents that believe your NT children's acheivements are all down to you. Not true.

On the other hand, children who NEED to be explicitly taught basic skills, take an enourmous amount of effort beyond the limits of many parents for their time-consuming, repetative, intense and boring nature.

recall · 25/10/2012 10:05

I'm getting nervous now because my son is 3.5 and has a hang up regarding potty training. Everyone advises me to wait until he is ready, so I am not doing anything - can't Sad He only has another 10 months to crack it, and if he doesn't I will be judged as a neglectful parent, who doesn't nurture and interact with my children....great !

OddBoots · 25/10/2012 10:50

Don't worry recall, 10 months is ages in toddler terms and if he's still not ready despite your best efforts then don't worry about any judgement, take pride in supporting your child's needs.

bochead · 25/10/2012 11:10

Yup that's the sum of it recall.

If your child needs help beyond that advised in "123 magic", or "Raising boys" doesn't fight you could be in for a bumpy ride at some point. (Both these books can be read over a weekend and form the core materials for many parenting courses btw).

gabsid · 25/10/2012 11:41

I think a lot of a child's development is down to the parents, e.g. we are a bilingual family, I use German only with DC and DS (now in Y3) still sees German as his first language, he speaks it to me and DD and will choose to watch videos in German. In school he is considered to be a native English speaker and treated as such (his sats results were average).

On the other hand, arrived at YR without any interest in drawing, reading/writing (he refused for 1 1/2 years and then I made him read). DS is not a good listener, he doesn't like books, he hates reading and writing in any language and day-dreams his way through school.

DS doesn't watch much TV, I always took him to libraries, groups, museums, talked to him ... did lots of stuff. We have a house full of books and we enjoy reading. DD (4) loves books and reading.

MrsCantSayAnything · 25/10/2012 11:46

gabsid well I am sure that MANY of the parent's on here who have DC with learning difficulties ALSO take them to museums. Hmm And read to them and do ALL the right things.

Sometimes, a child just has problems. You are lucky your son does not. Your parenting hasn't stopped it though. If he was going to be Autistic then that would be that...he wasn't though. So don't preen.

gabsid · 25/10/2012 11:52

I think DS is a bit autistic, but not enough to appear on the radar. He gets quite obsessive about things, his socialising isn't great, despite being very open and chatty.

I think his character did and does stop him from doing better.

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