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Original poster

How exactly do you know that your DC should go to grammar school?

317 replies

plus3 · 05/10/2012 11:06

Sorry for the ridiculous question, but I am going slightly bonkers.

DS is in yr 4 and has unspecified learning difficulties - mainly with attention and processing instructions. He is bright & remembers incredibly well. Literacy & science are his favourite subjects, and thinks he struggles with Maths but is actually above average. He craves structure and routine

My problem is that I am aware of some children in his class already doing extra work out of school (such as explore & kumon etc) and I now feel like I am letting him down hugely.

Should we be jumping on the treadmill of extra work etc to give him an even playing field? I don't really believe in excesses coaching to pass the 11+

So how do we tell if Grammer could be the place for him? When I have spoken to school, they always imply that academically he will be fine (whatever that means)

Sorry if this long & rambling, it all seems so very competitive around here (Bucks) thanks.

OP posts:
seeker · 09/10/2012 23:05

Don't worry- I'm poised for the next governor election!

But the fact remains- the majority of the children who've already started to learn seriously will be going to the grammar school. Not much seed corn left for a high school orchestra!

seeker · 09/10/2012 23:06

Sorry, mordion, I missed that. So not a high school, then.

MordionAgenos · 09/10/2012 23:07

And I most certainly did not accuse your son of lying. I assumed he was a typical boy. But since you seem convinced he is exceptional then of course I accept that. Obviously I wish my boy was more like yours because then I'd have an easier job of finding out what is going on without resorting to Laurence Olivier marathon man tactics.

MordionAgenos · 09/10/2012 23:10

You haven't told me how you know that only 3 children in your son's entire school are grade 4 or higher on an instrument (you didn't say whether you were only counting orchestral instruments or whether you were including other instruments in that). Or how you know how many decent musicians have gone to the grammar school. Even if you knew everything about your son's primary school classmates (and that would represent some pretty impressive/scary information gathering) what about the kids at all the other feeder schools?

seeker · 09/10/2012 23:11

I don't think he's exceptional at all. Anything but! . But he does actually like music! And I checked with his form tutor as well.

seeker · 09/10/2012 23:14

Because I asked. While I was being outraged about the lack of music. And I know how the grammar school organises it's year 7 orchestra.

MordionAgenos · 09/10/2012 23:20

If he volunteers information of any kind without having to have it prised out of him with ....you know, those dental pliery things....then he is exceptional compared to most 11/12 year old boys. Believe me. Grin similarly if he takes notice of stuff and finds it out, rather than wafting through life only noticing stuff when it smacks him in the face. When DS was at the start of Y7 last year, he was telling me with complete honesty on his part that as far as he knew there were no music activities for Y 7 boys although 'the big boys' had sme things, he thought (very vague as to what). Once he had found his feet, by Xmas he was in the jazz band, the clarinet and sax band, the samba drum group, and he was using the School's music facilities (and one of the school's bass guitars) for band practice with his mates a couple of lunchtimes a week. And his form teacher seemed very vague about music activities for the Y 7s (she couldn't be less interested in music from what I can see, she tried to schedule his SEN mentoring sessions to take place during music lessons because 'it isn't a proper subject'. But that's her, that's not the school in general, which has a performing arts specialism). I guess what I'm saying is please don't give up hope. All may not be as it seems at this point. Give it some time. That's all.

Pooella · 10/10/2012 03:45

What a lot of bollocks about carbon footprints. Come on now, the reason iit's bad to go to school 15 miles away is because it takes too long and you won't have many friends locally. No reference to carbon needed (it's ok because we go to Morecambe on holiday, whereas little Johnny next door to school went to Mauritius).

LittleFrieda · 10/10/2012 10:27

It's totally unsurprising that children who are playing instruments by the time they go to secondary, are mostly going to the grammar school. But children from non-musical and/or unmotivated homes should be offered the opportunity to play music at school. At my state senior school, lots of us learnt to play an instrument. The music lessons were state-funded and we were loaned our instruments. Music has been viciously cut from state education.

Music has sadly become much more of a middle class sport: you only learn music if you can teach your children yourself and happen to have a piano in the dining room/old clarinet hanging about or if you can afford for your children to be taught privately. I pay for my two youngest children to learn the recorder outside of school, whereas not many years back, pretty much ALL primary schools taught all of their children to play the recorder.

seeker · 10/10/2012 10:30

I agree. And it's not just music.

seeker · 10/10/2012 10:32

And in a comprehensive school the musicians would probably congregate in the top sets too. But at least they would be there, and visible, and it would be possible for others less privileged to discover an interest.

Original poster
plus3 · 10/10/2012 10:42

There have been some really useful posts - thank you. However, it is all pointless as DS is currently utterly miserable in yr4. Sad doesn't bode well for a life long love of education.

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WinterStepThisWay · 10/10/2012 11:08

Sorry to hear that plus3. Why is he miserable?

seeker · 10/10/2012 11:15

I'm sorry your thread has been so derailed. Can you tell us why he is so miserable?

Original poster
plus3 · 10/10/2012 11:17

New teacher, new routine, new expectations. Frustration on his part.

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MordionAgenos · 10/10/2012 11:22

Frieda, there are a wealth of musical opportunities at primary schools these days. The widening participation money has made a difference (and funded a lot of recorder teaching) and then there's In Harmony which is doing brilliant work now. I am incredibly worried about the future not least because DD1 wants to do music as a career and inevitably teaching often forms an important strand in a musician's portfolio - but the fact is that right now kids at primary school have more opportunities than they did ten years ago (when DD1 started school).

And there really is no reason why musical kids should be at grammar rather than SM or comp. My DS hasn't suddenly become unmusical because he goes to a comp.

Original poster
plus3 · 10/10/2012 11:22

I don't think it had been derailed - it's good to read the opinions of grammar vs state.

Towards the end of yr3 his teachers were delighted with him - he was really shining & doing well (less bad days etc)

Have discovered this morning that he has bitten 2 friends at playtime. Think he is misbehaving in order to get remove from classroom to head teacher's office (something he used to do in yr1)

OP posts:
LocalSchoolMum · 10/10/2012 11:28

Plus3, don't despair. My DS who has mild ASD was pretty miserable for the last couple of years in primary school. He didn't fit in and everyone had started to notice. He is now in Year 10 in a London secondary which is not in the 'most popular' category with local parents. He loves it, he is in the top sets for setted subjects, he has a group of friends who come and play on the console after school (something that never happened at primary), we pay for solo instrument lessons and he plays in the school band. Secondary school seems scary when you're in Year 4, but actually it can be wonderful.

agendabender · 10/10/2012 11:34

I don't have time to read the whole post, but I hope this is helpful.

I am - deep breath - a chally, and have siblings and friends who have and are going through bucks grammar schools. Most of them are quite supportive of learning difficulties e.g. dyslexia, as well as organisational and personal problems. However, we all knew each other's intellectual level, and we all knew who was not really up to scratch. Children coached for the exam who didn't really have the ability naturally were easily identifiable by the other children. People weren't nasty about it, but I wouldn't have wanted it to be me. There were four girls with dyslexia statements in the year. I could give you their names. It makes me shudder.

LittleFrieda · 10/10/2012 11:42

My children are at a state primary school and there's no music at all so far (DD is in Yr 2, DS3 in reception). My older two went entirely through the state primary school system and there was virtually no music ioffered at school either.

It wasn't my experience at my state primary school many moons ago. Music was a v big part of my school, and we all played recorder, and clanged away on instruments pretty much daily. We aso had a very active and energetic choir. It was such a joy!

Successive goverments seem to have managed to reduce primary education to a few worksheets and focussed on pupils getting 98% or more in them.

jeee · 10/10/2012 11:42

OP, having a bad start to year 4 does not say anything about whether your son is grammar school material, or not. It is simply a bad start to year 4.

Ultimately, the only way you'll know that your child 'should' go to grammar school is if they pass the 11+.

The only thing I would say is, don't allow your child to try this unless you have the time and inclination to spend time on practice. Allowing a child to sit a test that they're unprepared for is extremely unfair on the child.

I hope that whatever route your son takes will be right for him.

Original poster
plus3 · 10/10/2012 11:43

Trying not to despair....part of his frustration is that he knows answers, just struggling to get it out & onto paper within the allotted time span.

OP posts:
TalkinPeace2 · 10/10/2012 11:46

(plus3) Its ever so hard when they act up and you cannot get to the bottom of it. Have you tried "lovebombing" him to see if you can rebuild his confidence in himself and willingness to confide in you?
And having to stress about Secondary schools makes it all worse.
Not an entirely daft suggestion : could you move during the next four years to an area with fab comps that he will get into on catchment and you can then worry about other things ....

seeker · 10/10/2012 11:49

Are the school being helpful?

Original poster
plus3 · 10/10/2012 12:08

They think he has ADHD, ADHD clinic says absolutely not. New teacher is doing a good impression of someone who thinks it is all nonsense. He may or may not have AS.

Maybe I am just annoyed that his SEN is not as supported as it should be, and that it is limiting his options.

Remove the Sen - & I would say absolutely - he would thrive at a grammar school, I wouldn't have any qualms about the exam etc. Indeed, I exect no such dilemma about DD.

The SEN aspect clouds everything. It takes away the purely academic aspect & I was wondering if a GS would be a better (or worse) environment for him.

I am not talking about desperate coaching to get him into a school which he would then struggle through.

OP posts: