How exactly do you know that your DC should go to grammar school?

[plus3]

Sorry for the ridiculous question, but I am going slightly bonkers.

DS is in yr 4 and has unspecified learning difficulties - mainly with attention and processing instructions. He is bright & remembers incredibly well. Literacy & science are his favourite subjects, and thinks he struggles with Maths but is actually above average. He craves structure and routine

My problem is that I am aware of some children in his class already doing extra work out of school (such as explore & kumon etc) and I now feel like I am letting him down hugely.

Should we be jumping on the treadmill of extra work etc to give him an even playing field? I don't really believe in excesses coaching to pass the 11+

So how do we tell if Grammer could be the place for him? When I have spoken to school, they always imply that academically he will be fine (whatever that means)

Sorry if this long & rambling, it all seems so very competitive around here (Bucks) thanks.

The school with the best GCSE results that I know of achieved 88% A/A grades (60.1% A grades). 96.7% A*- B grades which is pretty amazing imo.

Can't imagine many schools doing better than that.

Queen you say your DD is in the top 1% of the ability range so she should be hitting the ceiling on the 11+ papers without any tutoring. You can't score more than the ceiling, so the purpose of tutoring is lost.

Potentially you risk boring the kid and you certainly stand to waste money.

I enjoyed reading this thread - very entertaining. Both my kids go/went to the local grammar school which is definitely 'super' selective if that's the term. I genuinely don't think you know how intelligent your kids are (or aren't) until they are older. I don't think getting a place at GS proves they are clever either as there are some quite average children there as well as the brilliant ones.

What I liked about the school is the fact that the children are allowed to be as geeky as they like without any problem. They can write poetry or sing opera or do anything really and everyone is fine with it. Some of my dds friends who are at other schools have said that they wouldn't be seen dead singing in a choir but my dd is in 2. I think it is this freedom of expression that is a strength.

I think some of the teaching is rubbish though!

My DCs school has choirs and orchestras and wind ensembles, they do Rock Challenge, cookery contests, rugby teams, computer clubs and languages teams.
Its a comp by the way.

That's great, good for them. I am posting my experience by the way, not bragging that my kids got into Gs - I will leave that to others.

Totally agree figroll - that's what I like about gs.

seeker - totally agree that every child should have a psychological Plan B - entrance exams aen't perfect.

Plus probably some of their friend will go to other schools even if they do get in to the gs so it's good to have respect for your friends' schools too.

No orchestra or choir or ensemble at ds's high school-- but isn't that an argument for comprehensive schools where these things are available to all? Rather than the privileged getting even more privilege?

No, it's an argument for starting them at your DS's school

It's an argument for having no comps if they are crap - not ending grammar schools because they're good.

But why would the comprehensive school be crap?

@seeker there is no reason why a SM shouldn't have an orchestra or choir. In fact I'm about whether this is in fact the case. My DS who hates singing told me there was definitely no choir at his school. There are 4.

If your DSs school was suddenly gifted a 'top set' it wouldn't automatically change into a school where music was valued. If the decision to not value music was based on the pupils interest, the addition of a top set would still leave 75% of the pupils uninterested. If every single person in the top set was interested (and they wouldn't be). If the decision to not value music is down to the staff then fiddling with the pupil distribution will have no effect at all.

I didn't say the comp was crap, seeker but you implied it was currently unsatisfactory - not me.

You obviouly believe in the trickle-down theory of education - that if you have bright pupils at a chool then their positive associations like music clubs and good rsults will follow.

But it's also possible you could have a trickle-up effect - general lack of interest currently meaning that the overall effect is worse than the status quo.

I didn't imply anything about a comprehensive- because we haven't got one -we've got a high school. It's a very good school, but it suffers because of the presence of the grammar school. It doesn't have an orchestra, while the grammar has two, because the children who have already had the opportunity learn to play instruments tend to be at the grammar. So the kids at the high school will never find out whether they might like to play or not- because they won't hear their contemporaries play.

"@seeker there is no reason why a SM shouldn't have an orchestra or choir. In fact I'm about whether this is in fact the case. My DS who hates singing told me there was definitely no choir at his school. There are 4. "
Are you suggesting that my music loving ds is lying about this? How bizarre!

Is your ds at a high school in a town where the richest and/or cleverest 23% have gone to a different school?

Out of interest Seeker,
is there much of a difference in calibre of teacher qualifications between the two schools in your town.
I assume (but am willing to be corrected with evidence) that better teachers will go for the school that will get better results for their CV's
Which of course perpetuates the vicious spiral that is SO clear in the league tables in Kent....
And results in eg music teachers less minded to having a go at setting up a wind band or a small orchestra. There MUST be other parents like you whose kids could populate it?

I'm suggesting that 11 and 12 year old boys are not always the most reliable of information providers. If your 11 year old is atypical in that respect then well done. But the fact is most boys that age tune out stuff they aren't interested in (and some stuff they might actually be interested in, too). It's not lying. It's being a Y7/Y8. Also, you need to lose the chip on your shoulder - interest in music is not confined to the rich or to the clever. You should know that. There is no reason why a SM can't have as much music as a grammar school - it's just up to the teachers. If you had a head at your SM who wanted there to be music at the school, then there would be. Perhaps the head is just one of those heads who don't rate music. You can find them in grammar schools too. And comps. And even private schools. It's a real shame if your DS does want to do music and he has no opportunity (are there really not any peris at the school either?) but the LEA music service will likely do all sorts on a weekend.

I don't know about qualifications. I do know that both schools have very good teachers qnd teaching. And yes, we do have choirs and orchestras in the town. It just frustrates me - using music as an example- that there are loads of year 7s at the grammar at at least grade 4 level, so a brilliant nucleus for doing something which would attract others to have a go. And at the high school there are precisely 3. So the kids who most need their schools to show them new things and broaden their horizons because home probably won't have nothing while the privileged minority get even more opportunity. It makes me so mad!

Mordion- please don't trot out the "chip on the shoulder" thing. I really don't have one. But if you accuse me of having a chip qnd my ds of lying we can't really have any sort of discussion. Which would be a shame.

And yes, my ds gets the music he wants and needs. I can provide it for him. But other children who aren't as lucky as him but may be just as musical won't.

You didn't say, mordion, whether your child is in a high school?

that is a shame about the music. Is that something you could help to change? If you had a bit of time? I would think that would be v rewarding.

@seeker Seriously, at DD1's school I can only think of a small handful (maybe 5?) of kids who started a new instrument from nothing when they started the school and have stuck with it. By Y10 there are not many of them left on the music lesson timetable. At my own comp, back in the day, a school which was renowned for its music, I can only think of two people in my entire time there who started an instrument from scratch in the first year and became any good. Admittedly, one of them is now an internationally famous musician. But still. I do know some professional musicians who didn't pick up their instrument till secondary school (I was at college with a couple, I know one from my own music stuff, and one teaches Dd1 in her national ensemble/orchestra) but it is quite rare. But, that notwithstanding - it's nothing to do with the grammar, why there isn't much music at your SM. it's to do with the people running that school - the SMT.

I'm quite surprised though that you can state with such certainty that only 3 children in the whole of your DSs school are grade 4 or better on an instrument. How do you know? I don't even know about all the kids as DSs school who came frm his primary, let alone from all the other feeder schools. And we don't get the music timetable for the whole school from his school (unlike with DD1s school) so it's difficult to gauge how many kids are involved in things - but the numbers look big from the performances I've seen. And that's a comp.

Seeker I've said many times in this thread and in others that DS is at a comp.