G +T at secondary school - selection etc

[Piffle]

Gifted and Talented not Gin and Tonic.
Ds is in yr 7 grammar, had always been on G+T since starting school and for maths is on GCSE level which he loves
Thing is the G+T letters went out yesterdya to two other pupils
Now before anyone tells me I have my head so far up my arse/am pushy parent etc...
Ds did slip in literacy, this is a common failing yr 6 primary literacy strategy for gitsted children, it comes out as boredom and teachers here get complacents as the kids have already done the 11+ and the grmamar will boof them up a bit
TBH they have.
Now for maths CAT's (cognative abilties tests ) done late last year - age standardised
ds scored 99% (highest poss for feb born) for maths and 94% for English
he teachers have just told me that he has been left out because there are others who try harder.
To be fair ds finds it pretty easy and really enjoys it - he is diligent and does his work happily.
I am really pissed off, as I thought G+T should not exclude kids who do well because they just do
Do I need a reality check?

Iam sorry I find it hard to believe that you have been told the CAT scores of other children in your sons class. These are confidential.
Why would the school overlook your son if he had the top score? That would not happen.
How could they be confused about who qualifies if he was the top scorer?
It is not difficult to put forward the top 5%.

Piffle you say you are "not bothered" if your son goes to Oxbridge. Yet you are clearly very bothered that he did not get into NAGTY.

Tinker99 - you are new - as you say. Welcome to mumsnet!

It's the first time I've come across someone with firsthand experience of NAGTY, so I'm very interested to hear more about it. I'll start a new thread to ask you about it. My boys are still in primary school, so not at that stage yet.

Many people posting on here have 'known' Piffle for months if not years; and have read her postings about her highly able ds1 as well as her dd who has SN. So we already have the benefit of a lot of background knowledge. I hope you soon enjoy mumsnet as much as we do and make many friends, but you will make more friends more quickly if you are not so quick to make judgments about parents and parenting choices.

To put forward my observations from choosing the G and T cohort for science.

We tend to use a lot of 'gut reaction' if I am being honest. Often it isn't the top scorers as these can be the able and hraworking, rather than gifted and talented.....fwiw I have had some G and T kids in low attainment sets....they were very able byt very naughty....and that affected their test results IYSWIM.

Iften it isn't the questions that a child can answer that tells you they are G and T, but the questions that they ask you.

Sorry if this sounds a load of cobblers to people, but this was the sort of thing that we used when we chose our cohort. Interestingly when you sugested a name, people almost always agreed.....the G and T kids just 'stick out' , and TBH the tests are not always that helpful....they tend to select those good at tests, sometimes.

and FWIW, I don't think that piffle is pushy.

Thank you roisin for the welcome. .
I have lurked for a long time on mumsnet but never posted ..I have enjoyed a lot of interesting topics. This time I had to post as being involved with NAGTY I had to speak up.
Sorry if I have offended I just wanted to tell the facts of entrance into NAGTY and I realise piffle has a lot of friends and Iam honestly not attacking her I hope noone thinks that. But I have seen this so many times. Her son has been v bright through lower school but now in grammar is not the best any more and this can be a hard pill to swallow for mum and child. Although in my experience the child takes it better.

Hi..Martian bishop. Of course schools have their own criteria for selecting pupils who they consider G+T. But Iam talking about the criteria of NAGTY and the school has to demonstrate that the pupil they put forward is working in the top 5% nationally. The usual way of doing this is the CAT test or MIDYIS. The schol will be given a mark say 130. Everyone over that mark WILL be put forward. It doesn't matter if it is 10 or none.

Piffles DS typing for himself below.

my mum is not a pushy parent. i watch the news and am not a complete philistine. i'd like to be a politician when i am older and so like to be clued up on current affairs. to anyone who says i must not qualify for this because i am not clever enough is mistaken because the two people that got there before me only did that because they got a higher average than me by 2 points when i got better scores in 2 of the 3 subjects.

Yoyo - Sorry I missed an earlier post from you on this thread! That's fantastic that you're listening to readers in school. I still miss it!

In answer to your question, our school does not accellerate children at all - they always stay with their peers, which I think I approve of. It works for my boys anyway. What they do do though is give lots of differentiated work - and not just when they've finished the "general class" stuff, but instead of the general class stuff when appropriate. They do lots of critical skills stuff and teaching that children can access at different levels, and take to different levels as appropriate for them. They also dedicate some TA time for challenging G&T kids, one-to-one if necessary: rather than just using TA time for the bottom 10% of kids.

The G&T provision is also driven by the school. Ds 2 came home last week telling me that Mr X had asked him if he was "bored in any subjects because he found them too easy"; and Mr X is now looking out some more challenging work for him. It's great for this to happen without having to play the pushy parent, and anyway afaik ds2 wasn't bored anyway as he loves school and learning!

Maths is the most difficult as it's such a linear subject: almost all secondary schools set for Maths even if they set for no other subjects for this reason. But my boys are general allrounder able children - especially science and literacy; so they're not the mathematical whizzes that are so difficult to provide for without accelleration.

Also a maths challege gold certificate demonstrates working in the top 5 %. Although this is rarly used by schools, they tend to stick to the CAt or MIDYAS.
Interestingly It is rare I come across a member of NAGTY who knows on what basis they were admitted. Most do not know their own CAT scores nevermind their classmates.

Tinker99 - please tell us more about NAGTY on this thread

Nice use, and spelling of Philistine

Just do your own thing Piffle Junior. In the end that is all any of us can do. You will enjoy yourself, and learn while you are at it.

Don't worry what anyone else says, just be yourself and enjoy yourself. Do as much, in as many different areas as you can. Have fun, that is the most important thing.

Piffle DS

Kangaboy says he thinks you are deffo brill and hopes your arm is fully mended now

The arm is mended
Piff here again
I was a little pushed for time earlier so may have come across as a little defensive
Now that the prodigy is fed, I am back for a quick recap!
They do know and share their CAT scores Tinker, they talk openly about them together, I've spoken to several mums about their kids scores too.
I was not even aware NAGTY exised at secondary level, until ds came home and mentioned that he had not got a letter, he asked me what criteria they selected on. I did not know so I asked them, as it was the first time they had admitted to NAGTY, they did not really know how they selected kids either
DS is in the top 1% for maths it was his reading comprehension that pulled his CAT average down.
He has not dropped a mark on matsh for years
Heaven knows where he gets this from and I say that as a linguist and with his father as a musician!
On discussing with the admissions officer, she said that several teachers had expressed surprise at some students being overlooked
This has now being sorted.
I can easily see how my facilitating my ds's ambition could be construed as pushy
FWIW I'm just a mum who has a sensationally clever kid. End of.
I'm not claiming the credit for him being like that (ok sometimes maybe ) Fact is he just is.
So the same as I press for 3yr old dd to receive portage/ OT/ physio/ SALT I think that ds deserves an equal amount of concern for his needs being met.
Whatever he does in the future, he knows that he has the support of his parents and step father. At the moment he is really enjoying being academic and achieving highly. All his progress grades indicate the same
I've got a nice lad who likes to cook, picks his nose, reads with a torch when its past his bedtime, fails to brush his teeth and loses socks more than anyone else I know.
He's the same as most 12 yr olds in that respect.
My main aim was that if there was a programme available through the school that would be good for him, then should he be on it.
I asked and it turned out that he should be on it.
If I had not asked?
I only want the best for him, thats a pretty natual thing for a mother isn't it?
I would not put him up for anything unless he wanted it, Gods honest truth
I'm not like that
I do appreciate the debate and being questioned though, really I do.

To be honest, piffle, I would thry not to worry too much about this. I teach some astonishingly able kids. Up to now we have almost zero g and t provison for them Has it affected them? AFAICS, not one little bit. For most of these kids you could shut them in the cipboard under the stairs with a book and a torch (and a nose to pick ) and they would do fine.

The sincle deciding factor in all these kids seems to be that they have supportive familes who give them a range of this to try/ ecxcell at and even to fail at.

Keep on, keeping on with your delightful son. I'm sure he will be just fine. There are some kids who really need the g and t provison.....and these come from homes that cannot (for a variety of reasons) provide the stimulation that you can.

Are we allowed to put them in the cupboard under the stairs with a book and a torch?
I like that idea!

DS2 roped me in to help assemble a model of an internal combustion engine today, as his hands weren't strong enough to tighten the screws. (Me? I ask you!) The infernal thing doesn't work properly, so he's going to take it all apart tomorrow [hysterical grin]

Piffle ...IF your son and his classmates know and openly discuss their CAT scores..this is very wrong. It is an absolute fundemental rule that Cat scores are not given out.
IF a parent requests the score it has to be given..to the parent NOT the child.
I would be very interested in knowing what school exists that openly gives out CAT scores and even places children in order of performance. That would be quite simply outrageous and something I have yet to come across.
The school are NOT confused about admissions criteria..that is most definitly not the case I can assure you.
If the school are forwarding your son in the next wave of applicants in April...they must be doing so on the some other basis other than his CAT scores. On rare occasions schools under pressure from aggrieved parents can put forward pupild under their own reconmendation...as long as they can show evidence to prove the child is working in the top 5% nationally, this could be outstanding test results from end of yr exams, classwork or maths challenge awards (gold only).

Summer school applications are now closed for this yr. The next wave of applicants begins in October.

Why are CAT scores not given out Tinker99?

I did wonder if there was some kind of ruling of that sort. I knew that ds1 had done some kind of CATs or IQ tests in yr3, as part of the G&T assessment programme. But when I asked his yr4 teacher at parents' evening (just by way of having something to ask!) she said she didn't have the results, and that they were used to compare actual achievement with potential. But that I could request the results from the Head if we wanted to. (I didn't bother.)

WE all got the CAT scores in a little envelope
Every parent I know showed them to their kids.
Is that shocking?
I can give you his results now if you think I'm bullshitting.
Ds is the highest rated yr 7 at maths, I have been told this by the head of department. HE was overlooked because they used
averages of all 3 CAT grades
If summer school is closed then thats fine, the admission officer had said that they had hoped that their handling of admissions had not caused any child to miss out on an opportunity.
I'm only going on what I've been told.
It's a grammar school, of course they place kids in order fo performance!!!!!!!! There are 3 streams in yr 7 for maths and English and for sport (ds is noticeably absent from the top sports stream LOL)
Why use IF Tinker, are you calling me a liar?

Me too batters!

Hi Roisin...Your sons yr4 teacher will have been aware of your sons score but will have been told to not discuss this with parents UNLESS the parent insists on being told. The school do not have the right to deny a parent accses to their childs records. But they will go out of their wat NOT to make these scores public knowledge for the play ground.
A lot of children (most) who are gifted DO NOT want it shouted fro the roof tops and most definitly not want their peers to be aware of any "difference". This can cause a lot of problems.
Like wise for those in the bottom of the ability range it is not fair nor right to make this common knowledge.
I personally think parents should be made aware of their childs score but this itself can cause problems if the children get wind and the whole can of worms is opened.
Schools prefer the "keep the parents in the dark tatic" at the moment.
You would be amazed that most schools do not even inform the pupils they are about to take these tests and they certaintly do not pre inform the parents.

Celia IMHO it is very unfair really but it is somehow true

EVERYONE

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