G +T at secondary school - selection etc

[Piffle]

Gifted and Talented not Gin and Tonic.
Ds is in yr 7 grammar, had always been on G+T since starting school and for maths is on GCSE level which he loves
Thing is the G+T letters went out yesterdya to two other pupils
Now before anyone tells me I have my head so far up my arse/am pushy parent etc...
Ds did slip in literacy, this is a common failing yr 6 primary literacy strategy for gitsted children, it comes out as boredom and teachers here get complacents as the kids have already done the 11+ and the grmamar will boof them up a bit
TBH they have.
Now for maths CAT's (cognative abilties tests ) done late last year - age standardised
ds scored 99% (highest poss for feb born) for maths and 94% for English
he teachers have just told me that he has been left out because there are others who try harder.
To be fair ds finds it pretty easy and really enjoys it - he is diligent and does his work happily.
I am really pissed off, as I thought G+T should not exclude kids who do well because they just do
Do I need a reality check?

Just got home from the clak face. I have to admit I had to look up the actual date of the exraction of elemental Fluorine (fluorine not joined to another chemical)

Found this on the web

'Until the French chemist Henri Moissan prepared elemental fluorine in 1886 (16), quite a number of researchers got an example of resistance by the way how vigorously it resisted any attempts to get it in the free state. Moissan prepared elemental fluorine by electrolysis (in a specially tightened apparatus) of liquefied, water-free hydrogen fluoride to which some potassium bifluoride had been added to increase electric conductance. Beginning shortly afterwards (17), a number of patents were filed on methods for the electrolytic production of elemental fluorine. However, its high reactivity and rather uncontrollable behaviour in certain reactions prevented any widespread uses in the chemical indusrtry for a long time. Most of its compounds were prepared, therefore, by tricky indirect reactions involving fluorides. '

Essentialy Florine is so reactive (as kangamummy says) it binds to other chemicals very, very strongly. To separated them rakes a lot of energy and basicaly you need electricity to do it reasonabley well. So it couldn't be isolated until electricity had been discovered in a usable form. HTH

Od and kanga mummy is quite correct Fluorine is the element. A fluoride is a salt make of a metal and fluorine bound together.

So Sodium + Fluorine= Sodium Fluoride
Potassium + fluorine = Potassium Fluoride

All the group of halogens (of which fluorine is the most reactive) follow the same pattern, so

Sodium + Chlorine =Sodium Chloride (table salt)

Chemistry is amazing, you react a metal that bursts into flame when it enters water (sodium) and a poison gas (chlorine) and it makes salt that we put on our chips!

Marvellous, you're both stars!! Which kind of fluoride is the one in toothpaste?

Sounds as if fluoride (as opposed to fluorine) was known about well before 1886, then. Any pointers on where to look up when fluoride might have been first known about?

mono fluoride phosphate iirc

actually in our AQUAFRESH it is

sodium fluoride

flurospar, a mineral has been know abour sonce antiquety, but obv they didn't understand its cemocal tsructure. It was the work of Antoin Lavoisier IIRC who started studes of fluorides....will google for you

Just read this entire thread with interest! Just want to add That the school would most defintitley have put piffles son forward for NAGTY IF he qualified...ie..top 5%in the country.

If does not matter how many in the same class go through , there could be 12 or none,They are being measured against a national scale .

Interesting thread from so many posters whose views I always read with huge interest (and if there is going to be a sucky-up club on Mn I nominate the sapient martianbishop as object of worship).
Piffle, I too regard you as the polar opposite of the pushy parent, and you sharing your experiences with the rest of us (my children are bink's age and we are starting to wonder if ds might have some G & T needs) is sooo helpful
Fauve's idea of a topic for G & T is a good one, I think, so I will send this thread to poor old Lone Star JJ to mull over.

Also..on another point. NAGTY is NOT for kids who "try harder". Is is designed for kids who have natrual ability and could well be lazy so ans sos. .
It sounds to me piffle like your son is a grafter who has a lot of ambition. Good on him he has a good attitude. BUT .. The Cat tests show natrual ability, not graft as they can not be revised for. The fact is your DS whatever his score ..Could not have fell in the top 5% in the country.
Don't believe the school when they tell you they don't know the criteria! this is nonsense . They want as many kids in NAGTY as possible from their school. Did he do a Midyas or Yellis..They may have gone by that score.

I hate top say this as Iam new...But after reading this thread . Iam afraid piffle does sound a bit pushy to me.(no flames please just my opinion.) Her son was tested for IQ at 7 yrs old. He is learning Mandarin. He HAS to go to Oxbridge and she is up the school complaining when he wasn't included in NAGTY.
Does it really matter if he is NAGTY or not? Does it matter if he is not top of the class?

Opportune that this has popped up - on my note below about ideas for extensiony things I have just bought the most brilliant book: Robert Fisher, Games for Thinking - simple and clever and endless ideas for all ages - not the two or three padded-out ideas some books have. Note rave reviews on link.

Mentions the cat-and-dog-anti-fighting-machine plus others. We tried out the "guess what each other is thinking then find a link between what you guessed and what they really were thinking" game and it made ds & dd jump about with excitement.

Robert Fisher is fantastic Bink isn't he? I've read a couple of things by him about Philosophy for Children (P4C).

My boss has given me his approval to go on a two-day P4C training course run by the fab Ed Psych we saw with ds1. I just need the one more person to "tick the box" and I'm definitely going ... can't wait!

I think Tinker99's comments give weight to Marina and others' suggestions that a separate topic might be helpful.

That book looks great. Have an Amazon order to place so will add that.

Roisin - still enjoying the job?

Enjoying? When did I claim to be enjoying it?!

It's ... interesting! In some ways I'm surprised that I'm still there, despite not loving it or finding it very rewarding. But there are little moments, and it is certainly a challenge.

Please email MNtowers as I did several weeks ago and nothing happened since

So perhaps if more people ask for it then it may happen

Roisin - sorry! I recall a posting where you had a really good class and thought it might have been the start of a general improvement. I still think you should pursue a G&T role within your education authority.

The real difficulty with G&T is that the bottom line lies very much with individual class/subject teachers, some of whom have very little interest/appreciation of G&T kids or issues - and in some cases justifiably so.

We have a fantastic G&T co-ordinator at our school, but IMO the extra/alternative-curric G&T activities are not what really make the difference. What really matters is whether kids are stretched and challenged day-in day-out in their regular classes, or whether they are bored rigid, and simply given 'more of the same' if/when they finish the work set. But in a non-selective, mixed ability ethos it is extremely difficult to challenge in this way.

In our school almost all subjects in yr7 and 8 are taught in completely mixed ability classes. You would be stunned at the range of abilities in a class of 28 twelve yr-olds. Even the most dynamic, talented, and committed teachers have admitted to me that they cannot hope to appropriately challenge the bottom 5% and the top 5% of students in the majority of classes.

Roisin - I have recently strted reading to children at our Primary school having read an excellent piece by MM. I read to children from three different year groups and I really have been shocked by the ability range. I cannot see how teachers can realistically cover both ends of the spectrum - in ours the tail is much longer and I suspect that lessons are pitched more to the mid and lower than the upper end. In such cases I think there should be much more shared teaching time with the more able having lessons with higher Yr groups according to needs (and the lower being catered for in the same way). DD currently has maths with Yr 6 and it has worked amazingly well. Would love to see it implemented for English. Does your Primary have a similar thing?

Yes Piffles Son does sound lovely and very bright,with a mature attitude. BUT..Why the need to be 1st in class. I know this attitude can rub off on a child I've seen it first hand. Why does piffle junior feel the NEED to go to Oxbridge. To please mum? Of course this will be denied. But its him etc etc . But how does the child even know of Oxbridge. Or that being in NAGTY can help his application?

Why does he feel such a sense of failure at being denied entry to NAGTY? And how on earth does he always seem to know his exact position in class for all subjects. I didn't even think teachers gave them this info....unless you actively seek it out. But why does it matter?

Piffle to be blunt is putting enormours pressure on her ds...and that is why he is distraught at failing to get into NAGTY.
Iam quite sure Piffle is a wonderful mother who clearly adores her chilren...But that is the way i see it and can cause long term damage i've seen it before.

"Why does he feel such a sense of failure at being denied entry to NAGTY?"

Er, maybe he enjoys it? Believe it or not, bright kids do often love learning. Very unfair to assume that the only possible explanation is Piffle being pushy.

Tinker the problem is that if our children were the next David Beckham or wayne rooney

everyone would say YES they should play football get them signed up for a junior football team like Man U {under 14 team}

but because their skills are intellectual ones we get told we are pushy mums

Why is that??????????

No..I Agree with you. BUt I don't think piffles son is a Genius. Because he would of been put forward for NAGTY IF he fullfilled the entrence criteria. Which He clearly did not.
There is nothing wrong with that..that is all Iam saying. He is very bright obviously...to be in a grammar but NAGTY is a different ballgame and he shouldn't feel like he has failed for not achieving the top level. All the children in his class are very bright but not all are in NAGTY.
it doesn't matter is all iam saying.

The bottom line is he did not acheive the level to be accepted into NAGTY through his CAT tests but two members of his class did. They should be congratulated yet Piffle seems angry that they got in by "hard work" not natrual brilliance like her son.
This is not the case..that is my point. The boys who got in are the ones with "natrual ability" which is what the CAT tests are designed to pick up.

Perhaps I should not be pointing this out...but I was getting frustrated reading this thread about the misconceptions surrounding NAGTY. ...IE..Only 2 in his class were picked ..the hard workers. Being involved through the years with NAGTY I know this to be false and wanted to put the facts for anyone interested.

tinker my son is natural ability he scored higher on the CATS than 3 other children put forward for NAGTY - it turns out that the school were doing this for th first time and were unsure of how they could select pupils.
And also actually ds is not a grafter, he coasts which is why we are keen for him to be extended.
He has not been admitted as have 2 other children who should not have been overlooked at the first induction
Ds being away with his broken arm was a major contributor to his being overlooked as well.
My son was not "tested" at 7, his father is good friends with an ed psych and she assessed him almost informaly while they were staying with her.
Ds wants Oxbridge, I'm not bothered, he can dow what he likes, join the circus, I am looking out for what he wants and as he says this is what he wants then thats what my aim for him is.
Madarin is offered at his grammar school, 15 other kids from yr 7 do it, and from other local schools too, its desire and a good homework record not academically/IQ based - and again he asked to do it, same as karate and guitar.
He asked me about the NAGTY as he knew the children who were put forward had scored lower in matsh than he had - the school is streamed so it wasn;t rocket science to figure out
Pushy then?
Guilty - I am anxious that my son is able to use his ability to get the best out of himself, does that make me a bad parent? Am I supposed to quash his natural ability and say fail in order to meet some unpushy target?
I put no pressure on him actually - HE puts a lot of fucking pressure on me to be blunt