G +T at secondary school - selection etc

[Piffle]

Gifted and Talented not Gin and Tonic.
Ds is in yr 7 grammar, had always been on G+T since starting school and for maths is on GCSE level which he loves
Thing is the G+T letters went out yesterdya to two other pupils
Now before anyone tells me I have my head so far up my arse/am pushy parent etc...
Ds did slip in literacy, this is a common failing yr 6 primary literacy strategy for gitsted children, it comes out as boredom and teachers here get complacents as the kids have already done the 11+ and the grmamar will boof them up a bit
TBH they have.
Now for maths CAT's (cognative abilties tests ) done late last year - age standardised
ds scored 99% (highest poss for feb born) for maths and 94% for English
he teachers have just told me that he has been left out because there are others who try harder.
To be fair ds finds it pretty easy and really enjoys it - he is diligent and does his work happily.
I am really pissed off, as I thought G+T should not exclude kids who do well because they just do
Do I need a reality check?

piffle, if you're feeling like some support, please have some from me now! I read a lot of your posts (and have learned lots from your experiences, in fact) but don't usually contribute because my children are younger. So I feel I know you a tiny bit, and have never dreamt of you as pushy. Hope that helps.

Bink what a lovely thing to say
thank you xxxxxxxxx

Piffle, the only person who can decide whether your son should apply to Oxford is your son himself when he comes to fill in his UCAS forms.

People fromi my 6th form college applied who came from secondary schools where it hadn't been given a second thought. If come 5th form/6th form time he is showing the ability the school will encourage him and give him the extra stuff needed as it looks good on their percentages.

Piffle, I don't know what you think of this, but I've been wondering if we could ask MN Towers for a separate heading 'G&T Club' (or 'GAT - as in Gifted, Able and Talented - Club' if G&T is too confusing). I always read the G&T threads, and people ALWAYS get hammered for admitting that their children are G&T. At least if it were a separate category, anyone who objects to G&T kids getting special attention - or indeed being in existence - could stay well away from those threads. God knows there's enough we need to share information on.

My ds is also in Year 7, and coincidentally also was off sick for some of the assessments last term, so I may well have notes to compare with you! I've heard nothing at all from his school on that front for the moment.

Piffle, re the Oxbridge thing, good for him for having ambition! Naturaly he might change his mind in time, if say, he decides to take up a subject that is taught better somewhere else (and I'm an Oxbridge graduate myself, so don't shoot me! )

Even if he isn't on the gand t programme it isn't the end of the world. I teach in a school that has no real g and t program. I also teach some of the most able children in the school. Students who have studies these kids found three connecting factors, a highly supportive (and realistic) family, well foundere ambition which gives these kids drive and a wide ranging interest in many, many aspects of life. These are the kids who do guides and D of E, play instrumnts and are in the sports teams.

If your son were mine (and I'd be a lucky lady by the sound) I would be aiming to braoden out his interests and hobbies....IME this leads to much happier and more 'grounded' kids who have been accelerated.

Re Oxbridge, let him run with it, but SADs first, then GCSEs and then A levels, and then the world is his oyster!

Piffle - YOU know you are not pushy, your DS knows you are not pushy. And that is what matters. FWIW you don't come across that way at all, here or elsewhere in your posts.

You have a clever little boy there It is lovely to hear someone so young to have some ambition and plans. Yes they may change, but he has aspirations. Many of the children/teenagers I taught, even at age 16/1/18 had no aspirations full stop - which is so sad. I hope he always has his hopes and aspirations for his furutre, whatever they may be.

I agree that I do get cross when I see academic success and ambition treated as some sort of freaky disease, whereas sporting ambition is always treated as something wonderful.

Everytime I read your posts Piffle I think your ds sounds like a thoroughly charming boy, and I know you're not a pushy parent. I hope he continues to thrive at his new school.

Hulababy and Martianbishop - I've been really surprised too by teenagers with no ambition or aspiration. In some ways I expected kids to have unrealistic expectations - e.g. "I'm going to be the next David Beckham, or a popstar or something, and make millions ... therefore I don't need to do my homework". But on the contrary so many kids seem to have NO dreams or ambition, no drive or motivation for shaping their future.

Piffle, have you looked here ?

If he has his heart set on Oxbridge he would be wise to show excellence outside of schoolwork. Voluntary work, music etc- he may already do this. By the time he comes to apply there will be thousands applying with straight A's and to stand out he'll need to look well rounded.

Like hmb I'm an Oxford graduate. I didn't decide to apply until my Lower 6. I wasn't particularly good at outside activities, but I did quite a lot, plays, outward bound stuff, music (only grade 6- nothing spectacular). I know that was taken into account as well.

I'd encourage him be less set on Oxford tbh. Getting in is always a bit of a lottery and you don't want him to spend the next 7 years desperate to get in then not getting in because of wahtever minute bad luck of the draw reason. Otherwise you risk him seeing himself as a failure at 18 which would be ridiculous. Also he may get in, get there and hate it- some do.

hmb- martian bishop I mean!

Jimjams, re the outward bound etc stuff, that is just the sort of thing that our brightest kids go for. I would always counsel parents to go for breadth not acceleration.

Hi Piffle. I know from your posts that you are not Mrs Pushy Parent. Your ds sounds great. My dd was also top in everything at primary school (99.something% for 11 plus tests) but has found lots more bright ones at grammar school. I can see how frustrating this must be for you and ds. Much less bright kids at other schools are getting opportunities. My personal gripe is that we miss out because we live in the sticks. Standards much lower than when we were in London. The school needs to explain. I'm sure you can find some of those Uni of Warwick G and T activities near you but feel you deserve an explanation too.
Actually my dd is a bit of an airhead - drives me mad!

Just to add what jimjams said about encouraging him not to be too fixated on Oxford.

I was encouraged by my school to apply to Cambridge, though the school had no record of sending children there. I had a strong appliation form, but had a really bad interview and didn't get in. It was the first thing I had ever failed at, and I was absolutely devastated, and basically stopped working at all for a couple of months (until I got my mock results which brought me back down to earth!)

Having said that, Oxford is probably going to be so expensive to attend in 5, 6 yrs time, that it might actually be easier to get in, especially for state school applicants.

Was pondering this last night. IIRC in my year 8 people applied (girls state grammer school). 6 got in- the 2 who didn't were "dead certs", certainly more academically intelligent than me, and with much better exam results than me (and at least 2 other people who got in). There's always an element of luck.

I'm related to the girl who very famously didn't get into Oxford. There is such poor provision in most of the country for G and T and many of the children who would benefit are not being targete because of this top 2 or top 10%. I know children far less able than receiving enrichment programmes simply because of the borough they live in.

Just read my own message - obviously not G and T at typing myself!

I agree with the enrichment programme though. Our city has some very poor areas- G and T resources are concentrated there because its there that they have a real chance of making a difference (ie stopping the spiral of drug dependency, unemployment etc) by bringing together children (who academically may be less able than their grammer school counterparts- at least on paper) to show them that it is OK to do well at school. With a limited resource it seems a very good way of spending the money to me- they have a chance of making a real difference.

Schools are always going to be constrained by GCSEs and the need to get students through their exams (and doing well at exams is different from stretching and encouraging intelligence- no good being fantastically bright and stimulated if you can't pass an exam- and that happens). If you are a fairly sensible parent it isn't that difficult to provide the extra that bright children may want- there are lots of choices out there now and lots of things they can access pretty easily (eg museums- often free, the library, theatre groups, reading goups, outward bound activities (again often free), conservation work etc etc).

I've said this before on a similar thread but there seems to be an idea that "children with SN gets all the help they need so why can't my G and T child". It's baloney- children with SN are being let down nationwide in a huge way. Getting a basic education for them often involves countless battles and fights. So as resources are limited where should the money go? Obviously where the biggest difference will be seen- which is to children who are at risk of educational or social exclusion.

I showed this thread to DH last night and we both said how unfair on your DS they have been by not putting him in the programme

And btw we think that you are not a pushy parent

And we also agree that it is unfair on G & T children who are not sporty that we are not allowed to express how proud of them we are

whereas if they were the next david beckham we are allowed to say so

DS is G & T with english but we are not allowed to celebrate it with friends etc cos it is boasting whereas if he played rugby/football/cricket for hertfordshire then we could iyswim

DS has dyspraxia and hypermobility in his joints and muscle weakness in his legs so will never be good at sports

So like your DS, Piffle why is it seen that if we say anything about their academic ability we are pushy parents?

In my experience the idea that you have to show excellence in other fields is a bit of a myth - my husband and many friends have done Oxbridge admissions in a range of subjects (though not medicine - perhaps that is different?) and they have said many times that what they are looking for is interest in, and aptitude for, the subject, not grade 8 piano with distinction etc - they despair of the way candidates are convinced they need to sell themselves on their extracurricular achievements when what they are really looking for as tutors are people who are going to enjoy the subject and be fun to teach for 3 years. (I have tutored at Cambridge on a casual basis in the past and I can relate to that - I had a student who was captain of the women's rugby team and was always showing up with broken bones explaining she hadn't managed to do the essay....)

Anyway, as jimjams so wisely said, he should be encouraged not to fixate on Oxbridge. Remember there are not enough academic posts for all the brilliant lecturers to stay at Oxbridge, which (compounded by house prices there) means that some of the best teaching is to be found at other universities. And he could always do postgrad at Oxbridge later if he doesn't go there first time round.

In my experience the idea that you have to show excellence in other fields is a bit of a myth - my husband and many friends have done Oxbridge admissions in a range of subjects (though not medicine - perhaps that is different?) and they have said many times that what they are looking for is interest in, and aptitude for, the subject, not grade 8 piano with distinction etc - they despair of the way candidates are convinced they need to sell themselves on their extracurricular achievements when what they are really looking for as tutors are people who are going to enjoy the subject and be fun to teach for 3 years. (I have tutored at Cambridge on a casual basis in the past and I can relate to that - I had a student who was captain of the women's rugby team and was always showing up with broken bones explaining she hadn't managed to do the essay....)

Anyway, as jimjams so wisely said, he should be encouraged not to fixate on Oxbridge. Remember there are not enough academic posts for all the brilliant lecturers to stay at Oxbridge, which (compounded by house prices there) means that some of the best teaching is to be found at other universities. And he could always do postgrad at Oxbridge later if he doesn't go there first time round.

Oh is it medicine he wants to do. I spent years working with people who want to go into medicine. For any medical school he needs, work experience, work experience, work experience and work experience. Voluntary work is good too- eg with elderly etc- demonstrates people skills. Work experience is as important as A grades- without it - no chance of any medical school accepting you.

Don't think it was specified - i just didn't want to mislead if it was cos medicine often seems to operate a bit differently and is often the most madly oversubscribed.

oh I see. TBH I think a lot of getting into Oxbridge is luck. All the poeple applying will have good grades, all will be bright. In the old days they had the exams so you had a chance to demonstrate reading round the subject etc, its a bit harder to do that now. Also depends a bit on who you are up against at the college you choose. Someone got into our college because he'd applied elsehwere- that college had rejected him outright, but by mistake they put his name on the list to come and talk to the tutors at our college (there were 2 people with similar sounding names)- and he got in. Luck!