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contacting mumsnet about article

182 replies

singingmum · 22/10/2003 14:01

Does anyone know how to contact mumsnet as I would like to know why they wrote such an ill informed article on home education.I know I have commented on this on another thread but the article is still there.I am severly dissapointed that this was written in such a way as to make He seem like a foolish thing to do.The article was badly researched and had no information that was helpful.Mumsnet has been a godsend on the advice front except for this and I am a little shocked that they have done this.
Any help or opinions appreciated.

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anais · 29/10/2003 23:31

Doormat, I don't know the background to this, could you explain?

FairyMum · 30/10/2003 07:55

Lailag, from you name I am guessing you are scandinavian like me ? I was also worried about my dd starting school at such an early age, but I have found that it isn't that different from the nursery she attended. It is still quite a lot of play and she loves it. We live in a rather nice area and have been lucky with school and teachers. I do worry about what I see as more pressure on children with starting exams very early on and singling out the "bright" from the "not so bright" at an too early age. I think you easily have an 11 year-old who does not seem very good at school, but who catches up later on. I also worry about the educational standard in this country. In my eyes, pupils specialise too early and don't have a broad general knowledge background. I did a university degree in Sweden and then one in the UK and the standard was very different. I think generally speaking that the level in geography,history and especially languages are appalling. Do you have the same worries?

Jimjams, I am sure there are many bright Steiner-kids.I considered both Montessori and Steiner for my dd. I even went to have a look at the Steiner school in Greenwich. I am impressed with a lot of what they are trying to do, but also very unimpressed with many things.....I think it so depends on the particular school though. I know that many of them do not prepare their students for "life after Steiner" and they come out with very few formal skills. I have also noticed that in their stress on"the individual" they make strangely similar people. I actually think the Steiner-people I know are much less individualistic than people from "normal" schools. I have found the same with HE people. The ones I went to school with were so scarily like their parents that they were like little clones. I think that's why I don't think it's a very good idea. In my mind it is done just as much for the parents benefit as for the childrens. I think many of the HE-parents have a very set idea of how their children should develop. The values they should learn and what they should learn. I am sure I am writing this very clumsily because of course I care about that too, but I wish to be involved in my children's education and not to be in control of it (that's the way I see it).

Jimjams · 30/10/2003 08:33

FM- a lot of people do say that the Steiner movement these days can be a bit over-zealous with applying Steiner's philosophy- and I do know what you mean.

RE the Greenwich Steiner school- not sure how old your child is- but I'd really recommend the parent and toddler group there- even if you don't want to used the school. I used to go and they were wonderful with autistic ds1 (even though he had no diagnosis then- but didn't do anything he was meant to- he just wanted to sit on the lecturn stairs or would freak about the door not being shut.). This was at a very low stage for me- ds2 had just been born and ds1 was completely freaked out. I really liked the people there - it was a real sanctuary. I didn't go for very long as we moved away.

FairyMum · 30/10/2003 09:03

Jimjams, my dd is 7 and go to normal state school and my ds is 2 and goes to nursery. I have not completely ruled out the Steiner-option for ds, but I want to learn a little bit more about his character first. My sister - who has DS - briefly went to the Steiner school in Sweden, but she was moved on to another special school as she couldn't really function in that setting either. I have been to see them and although I find them very nice with some brilliant ideas, I also find them quite sect-like. Did you find that ?

tigermoth · 30/10/2003 09:35

FYI, the Greenwich Steiner School has been in the local newspapers recently. The school is putting in a bid to move to new bigger premises at Mycanei House (the Borough Museum has just vacated this buiding). The papers carried a lovely group picture, rather strangely almost every child and adult was either wearing a stiped jumper, a striped hat or a striped scarf - scary!

Anais to pick up your point about HE children learning to entertian themselves at home. Well I am thinking what would happend if I was HE - ing my 9 year old. He too entertains himself at home, no problem. He got lots of interests ie collects fossils, likes drawing and reading, but also likes playing with his gameboy and xbox. The latter are major distractions and I think too much freedom of choice about what he does with his day would not work in his favour tbh. We would have endless small arguments about his use of time. He's great at bargaining, and that can be very time wasting. I know this because we have it already when he has homework and music practice to do.

His current school, the one he likes so much, is strict on performance aad behaviour. There are lots of rules, the smallest things are rewarded and punished. It is a small school and teachers know all pupils well and by name. Nothing much escapes them. My son knows exactly what is expected of him, exactly where he stands with them, exactly what he should be doing at any time of the day. Yes it sounds horribly old fashioned and regimented. I don't think I would have liked it as a child. I went to a very liberl primary school in the late 60's full of hippy teachers. However my son has beeen to more liberal schools and not only under achieved but also was not that happy.

I read somewhere (Steve Biddulf, 'Raising Kids' possibly) that many boys need a firm structure to their day, rules, discipline etc. A liberal approach works better with girls. I scoffed at the idea, but my son's education bears out this theory so far.

Robin, going back to your point of wanting your child to feel special - well yes, I didn't phrase myself too well. Of course I do want my son to feel he is special, in the sense that every child is special in some way. I want him to know he is very, very special to me. But I don't want him to grow up believing he is automatically special to all other adults and that's what I was trying to say.

singingmum, I agree that HE with working parnets must involve a larger family. For that reason alone it would be impractical for dh and I to HE. We have no extended family nearby. I will look at the links you suggest.

Anais, talking of my theoretical HE career follower who then sends their own children to school so they can get on with their career, I agree with you when you say 'everyone is different, just because you acknowledge that something contributed to your success, or just what you became, doesn't mean you will want to replicate it for your children'

It's just that when the same argument is used in the following way, ie 'I had a bad experience of school, it contributed to my unhappiness, so I don't want my child to go through the same thing' I want to say 'of course everyone ( every child) is different'

fairymum, I think your last sentence sums up how I feel about my son's education 'I wish to be involved in my children's education and not to be in control of it'

This half term we have gone to the science museum, where my son hepled dj and produce a radio show, as well doing as lots of other interactive stuff, we saw the lord of the rings exhibition because we are making a fancy dress for him - Samwise Gangee (sp), he's been drawing figures from the exhibition, he's visited a victorian classroom, we've all taken part in a family african music lesson, spent time on a city farm (now he wants to become a volunteer) practiced his tenor horn and read books at home, today we are going to another museum where he will do a class in drawing cartoon characters etc. I feel I take responsibility for my son's education, but not sole responsiblity. Simply because the above list does not represent his full education. He will go to school next week and learn tons more stuff. I will have no active part in it. I chose the school, I try to send my son there in a happy state with his homework done. I would take him out of school ultimately if he is unhappy. That's where my responsibility ends. I am happy to let the teachers have control over the rest.

tigermoth · 30/10/2003 09:39

didn't check my message for spelling mistakes as you can see!

Jimjams · 30/10/2003 09:48

FM- I didn't really find them sect like- at least not the Greenwich school- it's too small iyswim. I guess they have a philosophy - and you have to see whether your beliefs fit in enough with that philosophy for you to be happy with the place. But that is true of any school.

For me it was a great place. At the time I had had to drop various groups because of ds1. The toddler group there were so accepting of him, and no-one gawped. they were happy to accept him for who he was. And when I sat an sobbed one day because I couldn't peel him away from the lecturn steps they were just lovely (didn't sob over the steps sobbed because I realised that my nagging doubts over the last year were true- he really was autistic). So I have very fond memories of that place- they made a difficult time a little bit easier. And to have ds1 accepted by a group was needed at that time.

Thanks for the update tigermoth. I love stripes- I am a steiner girl at heart.....

singingmum · 30/10/2003 10:07

Doormat,It must be so hard not knowing whats wrong.Has something changed recently at school?I
I was wondering what are the stories he writes like? I was wondering as I have heard of a magazine dedicated to young writers ie under 18.If you would like I could find the web address.Maybe encouraging him to send in his stories may help.Also there are competitions about for writers of all ages from childrens comps to the more generalised ones without any age limits.My brother was a nightmare at school and he wouldn't work properly,he ended up leaving a t 14 as the school said they thought it best.He wasn't very inspired at first until given free range to study the things he most liked.He is now a qualified electrician and his behaviour has improved with age.Maybe your son will see that he can be very good at something ie writing and this will encourage him.Also you will have a bribe that may mean more as most comps award prizes which range from the story being printed to money.If this may help put up a note and I'll find the addresses for you.
I know it's frustrating not knowing whats wrong but it does get better honestly.

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FairyMum · 30/10/2003 10:11

I am a stripe-girl too

lailag · 30/10/2003 10:22

FairyMum, well, I am half Norwegian but spent most of childhood elsewhere in Europe. DS does now (finally) enjoy nursery but sometimes I wonder whether they overdo it trying to teach him to count and the alphabet. On the other hand I think that at secondary school the teaching is very narrow, like many do A-levels in only 3 subjects (which does not even have to include any languages).
Singingmum, I suppose you can be much more flexible with HE but still feel that I would not be competent enough to teach someone else in a lot of the subjects at a later stage .
Anyway,seems a bit silly to worry about it now, ds is only 3y and dd 7months.....

singingmum · 30/10/2003 10:36

Wouldn't worry about the alpphabet and numbers thing as long as it's done in a fun way.My children learnt both at about 2 through singing songs.It's just like learning a nursery rhyme.
Wanted to point out that surely the values our children learn are our responsibility.The school enviroment is not there to teach values it is supposed to teach practical and mental skills.Most schools only use assembley to teach any kind of values these normally end up relating to only christian values which in this day and age is very wrong.I have been recently shocked to find that apparently teachers etc have to push the christian religion by law and this is dispicable surely only offending other religions and causing more predjudice.Therefore it is our duty as parents to teach our children right from wrong.Surely something we agree to take on when we decide to have children.

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singingmum · 30/10/2003 10:37

Sorry alphabet.Always was lousy typist

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doormat · 30/10/2003 10:44

Singingmum yes that would be good thanx.
He will write about everything and anything.From football, to volcanoes to his nans false teeth

The only things I have noticed that has changed in school is

  1. their discipline attitude has gone lax.
  2. With this there are other children who are far "naughtier" but the lack of parental support means that the children are just sent to a corner. For example there was a school trip organised last year, my ds was naughty in class and was sent out of his class, he ran out of the school grounds and teachers had to go and run after him.He was barred from going on the school trip because he might do that again at the trip.I accepted the schools decision and thought they were right.I was then approached by another mother on the PTA commitee and she informed me that another boy was going who was far naughtier but because his mum worked they could not bar him from the school trip.The PTA woman told me she thought the Headmasters decision was unfair and I should be aware of what was going on. I did go and se the head and voiced my concerns and he said nothing of the sort happened.But a couple of dinner ladies told me the same story. Who do I believe. I am not suggesting a tit for tat attitude at all here but this is the sort of thing my son faces everyday. If he is naughty the school phone us and we take him home, but he sees it unfair as other kids are doing the same and they are just sent out of class. I think in his head he sees "well I can get away with that because gets away with it" so he takes it to the extreme.IYKWIM. He has the attitude that they should all get treated the same(that is from me as I treat all my children equally) He will hit a child and then because a teacher has seen him he will deny, deny and tell them they are lying. As I said on other thread I dont get this behaviour at home and if we do it is very rare.
singingmum · 30/10/2003 11:03

I find it odd that they are using the fact that the other boys mum works as an excuse not to punish him the same way.This surely is his mums prob. she hshould have to make other arrangements.I would believe the dinner ladies as the school head will not want to be seen as treating the other child differently.Sound like you and your son are seen as easy targets in this as you are a SAHM.Is there any other schools that he could go to as I must admit I would see things the way your son seems to.I also wonder if he is not so much hitting another child as hitting them back.This seems to happen a lot in cases like this the teacher is busy with the whole class and sometimes only sees one 1/2 of the incident with the other child claming innocence.Maybe you could He until you find a better school or until he is due to start comp,as being actually expelled could really knock his confidence and to be honest expulsion rarely works as some children think it's a holiday from school more than anything.If the school don't start to treat your son the same as the other children then maybe this would be for the best.I know it's hard to stand up to a school who are busy denying any wrong doing but neccesity being the mother of invention there are ways.
I will find those addresses out and put them up in the next few days as they are all in a book which I will have to find out.

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FairyMum · 30/10/2003 11:05

Singingmum, the alphabet at the age of 2? Blimey! Your children sounds very clever. I can see why they would be understimulated at school of they are really that advanced.

I have to disagree with you on another point though. Teaching values and "right and wrong" is of course an important part of the school agenda. MY dd has just done a "project" about bullying which I thought was great.
My family is not religious either. I think I would definatly be concerned if the teacher tried to enforce christianity on my dd . However, I think schools were more like that in the older days. Nowadays there are children with mixed backgrounds and the parents would surely interfere if the teachers turned into preachers? I do think it is important that my dd is taught about religious beliefs too though.

I think our experiences of the school system is very different. Can I ask where in the country you live? Do you not have a choise of schools or do you think all schools and teachers are like that? I have met some fantastic teachers both in school and nursery and cannot praise them enough for the very hard job that they do. Oh, and I am glad discipline is laxing. Surely we don't want the cane back?

FairyMum · 30/10/2003 11:07

Oh no! Must remember to check for spelling mistakes. Hopefully no teachers are reading my posts.....

doormat · 30/10/2003 11:19

We have been looking at that option singingmum and I think you might be right about seeing me as an easy target because I am a SAHM.
The other boy whose mum worked was asked to find another school in the summer holidays as they could not handle him.The PTA woman told me this info.
I have no problem standing up to the school, once I was in town shopping and phoned on mobile to collect ds from school straight away.It was hometime and they refused to let him go home until I picked him up.There was dh and DD2 at home that could of sorted it but no they wanted me. I rushed there by taxi and asked what he had done. The teacher told me he didnt want to do his spellings. I had to rush to the school for that.I hit the roof. They havent phoned my mobile since

singingmum · 30/10/2003 11:20

Actually where I live(south wales)a lot of children know the alphabet at 2 or 3.
As for the religion thing I followed a link on mumsnet(the bit on HE) and it took me to a teachers website.I saw an article on religion in schools and there it said that they have to teach christianity in schools.
I too have met some excellent teachers but the worse ones seemed to have more influence over how the school was run.I went to several infant schools and 1 junior 2 comps.The teachers I met differed greatly but got more and more annoying as time went on.In annoying I mean prefered pupils who's parents had cash or power.A lot of the good teachers have left teaching or moved to other schools after being frustrated at the way things were in the education system.
The points made on disipline were that children should be treated equally.This has not been happening in the case of doormats son.I do not want the cane back and that comment is a little out of proportion.We were disscussing the fact that because one mother works and one doesn't should the children be treated differently which as I have said we both seem to think not.

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singingmum · 30/10/2003 11:24

Cannot believe that they reacted or rather over reacted in such a way about his spellings.Also phoning your mobile and refusing to let him leave that is over the top and dissgusting.I would not have been happy either.I have never heard of someones mother being called because they wouldnt do their spellings.Seems that his school just can't handle being a school if they are reacting like this over something so petty.
Glad they finally sorted out the prob with other boy though.

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doormat · 30/10/2003 11:26

Fairymum of course I dont want the cane back.

doormat · 30/10/2003 11:31

It is true singingmum, talking to you has made me realise i think I should look at another school for him.
I am in no way suggesting the teachers are bad there or wrong,teachers do have a hard job.That incident was the only one I was not supportive of.
I felt it was trivial.

singingmum · 30/10/2003 11:53

I agree teachers have a hard job but so do mums and we have the right to be treated with respect and so do our children.I don't not agree with punishing children in schools but think that the rules should apply to all not a select few.
Door mat I'm glad that this has helped I'll digg out those addresses promise.

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alibubbles · 30/10/2003 11:57

This thread is totally fascinating!

I admire HE's, I think you do a brilliant job. Are more boys home ed than girls, just a curious question? I just feel boys in particular would respond well to HE as they have to start school far too young, IMO.

Here is a link for a young writer's mag my children used to take, it is very good young writer

doormat · 30/10/2003 12:15

Thanx alibubbles ds has just looked and said "cool and thankyou"
singingmum I agree all children should be treated equally.thanx again

hmb · 30/10/2003 16:45

I've just come back from a week of HEeding my children in the half term break So sorry if this is repeating some bit that people have aldready discussed as I had to scan the thread.

First , many thank for your kind words about my teaching ability Jimjams! Not sure how true it is tho!

My 'worry' about HEing is that , as the HE ers have rightly said children learn in many different ways. What if the parents just don't 'teach;' in the way that suits the children? As a teacher in secondary school I know that it takes a 'huge' effort to teach in ways that do not come naturally to me. For example I am a natural visual/auditory learner. I am teaching a sixthformer who is a natural kinesthetic learner. I have to spend ages re learnign my teaching style for him. If a child goes to school they will meet teachers with a variety of natural teaching styles, and sometime they will match up well. That isn't going to happen at home.

Also I would dread the thought of teaching outside my areas of expertise. I know that I can give some excellent lessons in Biology, but my lessons in Physics (although workwomanlike) are never inspired, because that isn't my main subject. Goodness help the child that I tried to teach French or German. One person can't do it all well enough IMHO.

And re the GCSE in night school, I can see that would be an excellent idea, but only if the local authority has the relevant classes. I teach in Adult Ed, and althogh a HE child could do english maths and languages, they can only do Human Biology, not Physics or Chemistry. So that route might get tricky.

I can see that HE is a great thing for some families, but it wouldn't be for me or mine.

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