Teacher v TA Maths Groups.

[RichJU]

Hi,

My DS (Yr 2) is struggling with his maths - he has had hearing issues and misses much of what gets described by the teacher.

When I asked him why he doesn't ask the teacher when unsure, he told me that after the inital "lecture" by the teacher his group are taught by the TA whilst the teacher goes with the other group (the confident maths kids).

The TA just draws rings round his wrong answers. Anecdotally I know that the teacher continues the teaching with her group using whiteboard etc to get the subject across, whilst my son's group are left to get on with it.

He's unhappy (tears last week), we're unhappy - what would you do?

My (teacher) sister finds it unethical that the TA and Teacher never swap groups. So do I but fear making his life difficult by raising it.

Would you advise getting a tutor to bridge the gap and say nothing or tackle this.

Two points

1. I taight a year 7 bottom set who were delightful but quite immature. I taught them as if they were younger and focused the work at their level. They achieved and felt good. Many of their parents told me Maths (which was the only set subject) was the only lesson they enjoyed and felt they were good at. It was not a "SINK SET" but a set based on them and what they needed. It clearly worked. Most of them probably never realised that they weren't doing exaxctly the same as the other sets but that doesn't matter.

2. The gap between top and bottom gets bigger as they get older. I taught a top set (out of 3) in year 8. I usually toaught 3 different lessons as you say you do in Primary. I get it, it worked but to do that to the whole year group would mean at least 7 groups rather than 3 so each group would get significantly less time. Also, the bottom group who got lots of support as needed would be towards the rop and would get much less time and I don't see how that is to their advantage.

If you are teaching trig to year 9 then yes the bottom group could be doing measuring and drawing angles but the class teaching is going to be way over their heads and of no relevance. It is likely to confuse and ignore.

1/mnistooaddictive not nearly as immature as struggling Y2s who are extremely mature compared to reception

2/ the gap between top and bottom gets bigger if children are written off in bottom sets and then sent out with a TA instead of being given a fair share of the teacher's time.

I never heard of being sent out with TA. Having class teaching and then support of TA as well as class teacher is the norm and why is that wrong?
Do you honestly believe that all children would get A grades if taught together? I never know children written off in bottom sets. TBH they often have massive advantages. A class of 15 with a TA as opposed to 32 and no TA in top set.

Of course y7 are not as immature as y2 but they were very immature compared to rest of year group. Why do you have a problem with this?

Well believe me it is common place for groups of children to be sent off to another area with a TA for most of the lesson.

My point mnistooaddictive that in every year group there are immature children whether it's in Y7 or Y2 or indeed in reception and by becoming reliant of having a TA attached they are never allowed to become independent and mature.

Mine didn't have a TA. They just needed to be taught at their level. I also dispute if is commonplace to send groups Of children off with a TA in secondary. I have worked in lots of schools and never seen it as standard. I have done this for a very occasional lesson (once or twice a year). But very much the exception.

The OPs child is in Primary

True but you addresses your point to me when ivatayedvi was talk

Sorry phone issues try that again! You addresses your point to me when I talked about secondary.

A class of 15 with a TA as opposed to 32 and no TA in top set. or the same children in Y6 in a class of 39 mixed ability no TA reaching or exceeding expected levels.

I worked as t.a. for 3 terms last year. I was outside the classroom working with a group of less able children at their maths level every day, the teacher only sat with them once. Some of these children (yr4) were really, really behind, they could not even do number bonds to 10.

I can only speak of my experience and know that TAs regularly teach lower ability groups according to the secondary SENCOs I work with.

The fact remains that you say you know that TAs regualy teach bottom sets and I can tell you from my experience that they don't. I have done the job, you haven't and yet you tell me I am wrong. How does that work?

Well unless the COL SENCOs are lying about what TAs are doing in their Secondary schools I see no reason to believe it isn't happening.

I was a TA and taught bottom sets, in a very challenging school.

So I had an appointment and was told the issue is my DS' attention span - nothing offered in terms of how to counter that.

The issue of the teacher only teaching the higher ability set was not considered an issue. So all in all a complete waste of time.

My DS continues to be upset about maths and cried himself to sleep the other night despite all the consolation we could offer.

My better half visited the teacher too after that and pointed out that her approach was effectively a zero-sum game - she's educating the cleverer ones to the detriment of (on the whole) quieter and younger ones who haven't picked it up yet.

The more emotionally intelligent amongst this quieter set have picked up on it too - they believe they are less intelligent now and that the teacher only teaches the other set. My wife had an exchange with another mum coincidentally today who had reached the same conclusions.

So there we have it - a school with an excellent Ofsted report that is interested in teaching only a subset for an easy life. A visit to the head is a fait acompli trust me on that we've been down that route.

A complete farce !

Hi, my view wont be politically popular but I fought for change for years, to the detriment of my child.

Lots of issues with what's going on, and you can argue about how it should be fixed or not, but in the meantime your son and his education will carry on suffering while you?re embroiled in it all.

In this situation, you can pay, or your child can pay.
What I eventually did was found a good *** (am I allowed to put up the name here?) centre with a caring tutor (some are more supportive than others) and handed over ¾ of the C/B to them weekly, and supported my child daily doing the worksheets. (7 days a week)

Tell him he?s absolutely worth it and encourage him. If you?re not particularly able (I wasn?t) sympathise with him when neither he nor you know how to do something and tell him that?s what the tutor?s for, and you?ll learn together. (In my case he'd show less able me) The incorrect answers are there to show the tutor what he needs additional help with, the correct one's what he doesn't. No right and wrongs. (That was the rebuilding process of my trashed child)

Best thing I ever did, shame it took me as long as it did to do it.

Go ahead and tackle the school, but you have a long road ahead of you and a whole heap of damage that will be inflicted on your son while you?re trying to change things, so make sure you sort his needs while you try and make what should be happening, happen. Don't leave it up to them, it's your son that pays.
Best of luck.

Just to say that some schools do this differently. My children's previous reception school split the year 6 children into 3 sets across the 2 classes, with the bottom set being smallest and taught by the head teacher. The aim being to ensure that they got as many of these children up to a 4 as possible. Whilst some did still get 3s, most got 4s and some of them even got 5s.

I agree though that it is very difficult to change things at the school and I agree with others that the best support for your DC is probably to give out of school help via either on line resources or a tutor.

And in the meantime, hire a tutor.