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Original poster

Teacher v TA Maths Groups.

144 replies

RichJU · 30/11/2010 22:18

Hi,

My DS (Yr 2) is struggling with his maths - he has had hearing issues and misses much of what gets described by the teacher.

When I asked him why he doesn't ask the teacher when unsure, he told me that after the inital "lecture" by the teacher his group are taught by the TA whilst the teacher goes with the other group (the confident maths kids).

The TA just draws rings round his wrong answers. Anecdotally I know that the teacher continues the teaching with her group using whiteboard etc to get the subject across, whilst my son's group are left to get on with it.

He's unhappy (tears last week), we're unhappy - what would you do?

My (teacher) sister finds it unethical that the TA and Teacher never swap groups. So do I but fear making his life difficult by raising it.

Would you advise getting a tutor to bridge the gap and say nothing or tackle this.

OP posts:
c0rns1lk · 01/12/2010 19:58

thought so - I remember you said that you worked with offenders with SEN on a previous thread.

c0rns1lk · 01/12/2010 19:58
littlebrownmouse · 01/12/2010 20:01

I also endeavour to work on IEPs with kids who have them a couple of times a week too because again, IEPs deserve my time too. I set the targets on them so need to see where kids are at. Sorry for rant but it's an area in primary schools with lots of confusion surrounding it and where best practice isn't always adhered to.

mrz · 01/12/2010 20:03

I have an EAL child in my class this year and I have no TA time so I get on with it and teach him.

Last year I had a child with Global delay (functioning at around the 2 year old level)and she made 15 months progress in the year according to EP assessments ...

Hulababy · 01/12/2010 20:03

Yes - between teaching and the TA job I worked in a male prison doing one to one interview work with adult and young offenders. Many of our offenders had special educational needs sadly.

Feenie · 01/12/2010 20:04

I still don't understand how you can possibly know this even as a teacher, overmydeadbody.

overmydeadbody · 01/12/2010 20:07

Feenie, I don't need to out myself here, but anyone working in the same school as that particular teacher and TA would know what was going on.

Hulababy · 01/12/2010 20:07

I just wondered how it works mrz - some of our eal literally have very little English, and last year I had two children with EAL and SpLD too - in a full class all the time without the 1:1 time several times a day I can't see how they'd have made much progress. But obviously in your school something happens that makes it work - so curious what it is.

Who attends to several meetings with the outside agencies for such children? In my case it is often me, the TA, leaving the teacher able to keep teaching the rest of the class without drafting in cover. I then feedback in full later.

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2010 20:08

"neither of you believe the TA is capable of working with the able children (either because their knowledge isn't up to it or they wouldn't manage a larger group under the direction of a teacher)"

I don't think a TA should be teaching pretty much a whole class, no. Unless they have had specific training, then that is not their job. Littlebrownmouse's system of having the TA supervise a large group who are working once the teaching has been done is different.

As far as I can tell from the OP, the teacher teaches both groups.

Feenie · 01/12/2010 20:09

Ahhh, didn't realise you worked at the same school, that explains it.

mnistooaddictive · 01/12/2010 20:09

mrz i think we are saying the same thing. The TA may support the bottom group once the teaching has been done. Why is that bad? If the teacer is moving around everyone. As I said I teach secondary and who the Ta work with is usually defind by statements etc. That doesn't mean I ignore them but they get the focused support of the TA as well.

Feenie · 01/12/2010 20:11

It's bad as far as the op was describing because of everything that has been said here - she says her ds never works with the teacher, and if that's the case it's not on.

mrz · 01/12/2010 20:11

littlebrownmouse I think that is a really good point children with specific needs are often let down because they have 1-1 constantly attached and effectively get little attention from the teacher. I also worry that they aren't allowed independence to try for themselves before the TA steps in to "help".

mrz · 01/12/2010 20:13

no mnistooaddictive I'm not saying that. I think both the teacher and TA should be supporting everyone in the classroom and not in a little group that has been sent out of the way.

mrz · 01/12/2010 20:16

noblegiraffe but the TA isn't teaching almost the whole class she is "supporting" the class after the teacher has taught the whole class input.

mrz · 01/12/2010 20:22

My EAL child had no English when he arrived. EMAG came in said I was doing a great job left me a few phrases and said if I needed anything translating email them Hmm He has speech problems in his home language which doesn't help. But basically he now speaks better English than Polish.

I make it very visual - multi sensory - practical and try to tailor work to his obsession of cars when I can.

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2010 20:24

mrz, the OP states that the teacher continues teaching the rest of the group using the whiteboard (presumably more advanced stuff....that's why I originally asked whether the work was differentiated). If they were to swap roles, as you suggested, then that would involve the TA teaching.

But, obviously we don't know what is going on in that particular classroom.

mrz · 01/12/2010 20:32

The teacher should teach the whole class then the teacher and the TA should work with all children within the classroom IMO

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2010 20:37

mrz, I consider it a complete waste of a less able child's time to make them sit, unable to access what is being taught, waiting for the teacher to finish teaching up to the most advanced stuff so that they can finally start on some work that is suitable for their ability.

Feenie · 01/12/2010 20:42

Why can't they access what's being taught? Good use of a TA there would mean having them support those children so that they can access the direct teaching. They don't then have to work with them for the children's independent work.

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2010 20:46

"Why can't they access what's being taught?"

Because they are not as good at maths as the most advanced kids?

Or are the top end not being stretched?

Feenie · 01/12/2010 20:50

The top group are challenged during direct teaching - perfectly possible to extend this my slightly modifying interactive task, using larger numbers, an extra calculation, and an extra question to think about. They are further challenged during an independent task - either by me working with them, smetimes by the TA, or by the task I have set them having a good degree of challenge.

All in a day's work for a primary teacher. Smile

Feenie · 01/12/2010 20:51

It's a teacher's job during direct teaching to challenge top group but also ensure less able are supported.

Original poster
RichJU · 01/12/2010 20:53

Hi - OP here - thanks for taking an interest.

To answer to the best of my knowledge, the group of 24 is split approximately half and half after the initial introduction to the subject.

The teacher then continues (possibly more advanced?) with the advanced group. The TA does not teach afaik just supervises. It's more pronounced though as the teacher gets her group around a whiteboard and really brings the subject to life for those kids. The other kids are left scattered about on separate tables with this TA supervising.

Aside from any other aspect isn't this poor teaching practice? To my mind it just amplifies the gap - you will have to be a pretty special kid to catch up in this scenario.

Shouldn't the teacher's time be divided between the groups if they are going to stream at this age????

I'm not happy about this aspect - it doesn't sit comfortably with me.

OP posts:
mrz · 01/12/2010 20:55

What Feenie said