Teacher v TA Maths Groups.

[RichJU]

Hi,

My DS (Yr 2) is struggling with his maths - he has had hearing issues and misses much of what gets described by the teacher.

When I asked him why he doesn't ask the teacher when unsure, he told me that after the inital "lecture" by the teacher his group are taught by the TA whilst the teacher goes with the other group (the confident maths kids).

The TA just draws rings round his wrong answers. Anecdotally I know that the teacher continues the teaching with her group using whiteboard etc to get the subject across, whilst my son's group are left to get on with it.

He's unhappy (tears last week), we're unhappy - what would you do?

My (teacher) sister finds it unethical that the TA and Teacher never swap groups. So do I but fear making his life difficult by raising it.

Would you advise getting a tutor to bridge the gap and say nothing or tackle this.

"our less able children would work on simpler algebra"

But that's a completely different lesson, solving equations. And would they be doing this while the teacher was banging on about quadratics (so not be being taught at all) or would they be forced to listen in complete bafflement, then be presented with the worksheet of stuff that they can do, as mrz suggested that they should?

I don't think anyone said they didn't appreciate their TA or their role. The discussion is predominantly about best practice in deploying the TA.

"There is no point in children who are struggling being made to learn their times tables for instance."

I wish they would. Later on, the weaker children who know their times tables have a much easier time of it than those that don't.

Then I would need to brush up on my quadratics to be able to answer that question. But I would have to manage it, since it's my job. I wouldn't be able to say to the Maths coordinator or the Head 'sorry, it's a completely different lesson'.

Feenie, I know no-one actually said it, but I think they don't appreciate them (if that makes sense)

Maybe I am taking it personally because I am a TA? Either way, I know I do my job well and the children I support do make progress and that's what counts.

"But I would have to manage it, since it's my job."

I bet a million pounds you would get some of the group to get on with work on their own (or with a TA!) while you only taught a subset.

I've not failed to differentiate my direct teaching yet, noble, and I've been teaching a long time.

Kid, I think you are taking it a little personally, but I expect I would do the same . And you are right, that is what counts.

I figured I was taking it personally which is why I failed to mention I was a TA in my first post!

I know of some very good TAs, but I also know of some very bad TAs.

I've not said that you can't differentiate your direct teaching, Feenie. I do dispute that you can differentiate it so that the bright kids are never bored and the lower ability kids are never completely lost. In maths, I mean.

Come and see, I am outstanding(TM) apparently!

Seriously, I think it's a primary/secondary culture thing, because we just get on with it. It isn't really an issue. If I really had to extend the more able so much on something that really had nothing at all to do with the less able, then I would do it when I worked with that group. But the more able would not remain unchallenged in my direct teaching - we've done a hell of a lot of work in this area.

"then I would do it when I worked with that group."

That's teaching a subset!!!

But the issue all along was whether you would do that all the time. And you wouldn't - sometimes you would work with the less able and ensure they were stretched - and let's not forget the middle children . But all children would be extended.

Feenie, perhaps wires were crossed but certainly the suggestion from mrz was that everyone should be taught everything, and you seemed to agree that every child should have the same maths lesson taught to them.

If you're teaching the bright kids extra stuff on the side, that's different

I don't think so - mrz agreed with the model I put forward, where every child accesses the direct teaching and then we differentiate the tasks.

But differentiating the tasks is different (bigger numbers, trickier questions) to actually teaching something new to a subset (new methods, new rules). So what do you do?

It happens very, very rarely that a top set would need something totally different to the direct teaching. So, that's the way that I would do it. But it would normally be an extension of the main part of the lesson.

In maths, Feenie? But say you're doing adding fractions. The lowest ability kids need diagrams to add basic fractions. Maybe a bit of simplifying. The top end, to go up a level need to be finding common denominators and working with mixed numbers. Would you really make the weakest kids sit through all the common denominator stuff and converting between mixed and top-heavy fractions when they need to be practising the basic skills?

I would do the same but, as you say, use diagrams to help support the less able. I wouldn't teach common denominator and mixed fractions together, either. Adding fractions would be the main part, where less able were supported with extra resources, making it very visual, and top group would use the same basic concept but with more difficult fractions. I would extend it to common denominator stuff in the group part.

In maths, Feenie? But say you're doing adding fractions. The lowest ability kids need diagrams to add basic fractions. Maybe a bit of simplifying. The top end, to go up a level need to be finding common denominators and working with mixed numbers. Would you really make the weakest kids sit through all the common denominator stuff and converting between mixed and top-heavy fractions when they need to be practising the basic skills?

Our school does. All kids are all exposed to the same topic at the same time. They might get different levels of worksheets at the end to complete but they are exposed to the same info and teaching

Sorry, I didnt highlight the bit I copied to show it was from another posting.

Are you supporting less able readers there, RoadArt?

My sister was told by her dd's teacher - "if only all my students were like your daughter my job would be very easy" - it's easy to teach the high ability kids - in the main they are enthusiastic and catch on to concepts quickly.

Kids who struggle with Maths are a real challenge. When it comes to getting across concepts you are forced to really engage your brain and come up with various different way to explain what, on the face of it looks like a simple concept.

I sat in with a really rubbish supply teacher last week - luckily she only lasted a day but during the Maths session she stayed with the high ability group the whole time - one group of 6....while I, the parent helper spread myself between 4 groups and the TA took the lower ability group.

She kept saying to the high ability group - you'll find this really easy - unlike the rest of them in the class - who find Maths really hard. Then got annoyed at a child from the top group who teased a child from the bottom group for not being able to do their work!

A lot of this depends on the capability of the TA. At my dc's primary school some of the TA's had English/Maths/History degrees from Russell Group Universities and were able to help children in areas such as literacy and numeracy to a far greater extent than some of the teachers. One friend even spent a few evengings with one of the class teachers to help her with pretty basic concepts such as fractions and ratios .

I think I would make an appointment with the class teacher and ask for your child's sats level to be confirmed and if it is below where it is expected to be ask for an ILP to be put in place to help him to achieve what is expected. Ask also if the teacher thinks there might be underlying discalculia and for advice about how you can support you child to achieve. Monitor the situation and if there are no improvements ask to meet with the Head and the Key Stage Maths co-ordinator.

This approach IMO will make it clear that you are logically and calmly dealing with the situation and they will sort it or identify where your child has issues because that will be less of a hassle than having to deal with an articulate informed parent whose child is presently not being well served on too regular a basis. Sadly it's about who "shouts" loudest.

But ask for teacher assessment level, not Sats level.

Personally I don't think it is necessarily true that you can teach something well because you are good at it. The subjects I find easiest are the ones I have to work hardest to teach.
nobelgiraffe the reason all our children can access everything is because the staff work damn hard to ensure they do. In my maths class I have a child still working on number bonds to 5 (she's six and has never been to school previously) and I have others working with negative numbers and they all receive the same direct teaching and are kept engaged by questioning at their own level.