University Fees

[Xenia]

I see that Lord Browne in his report may apparently suggest (Sunday Times today):

• rights for universities to charge fees of up to £10k a year rather than the £3200 or whatever it now is perhaps from 2012

• removal of cheap loans for children of the middle classes (presumably even if their parents are not prepared to help them)

• interest rate susidies on loans going up 2%

• students who go into high paid careers will have to pay back more than they borrowed perhaps capped at 20%

• and one which pleases me - parents will be able to avoid the graduate tax for their children if they pay the fees in advance. None of my older 3 children took out student loans as I paid as I wanted them to be in the same position when I graduated in the days when there were no fees paid by students.

However the report is not yet finished and he may recommend abolishing the cap on tuition fees and let the free market rule which may be wise.

Not a lot of call for Latin and ancient Greek either but I'm willing to bet this is what a great many high earners studied (at Oxford). No degree is a route into a job except medicine. You always have to do a further qualification like a PGCE or law conversion or start at the bottom of a company. I would imagine some of the very worst degrees in terms of leading to jobs and high salaries are the most vocational ones. So you should choose what you want to do for a degree and not what you think you should. I also think a degree isn't really much to do with preparing for a career, it's about EDUCATION and that's primarily why you should do one.

I know Xenia, but I think that works for the very driven, business-minded young people who are top-rung and do well at milk round interviews. At the moment I can't in all honesty see him being that person - he thinks suits and offices are for squares! There is no point in pushing towards say, engineering or anything highly regarded yet practical - as you say he'll just have to follow his heart and I'll have to hope that at some point his head gets a look-in!

"No degree is a route into a job except medicine."

Not sure I agree with this.

What about pharmacy? It is necessary to have an RPSGB-accredited MPharm degree prior to doing a pre-registration year.

Biomedical scientists require a IBMS-accredited degree in biomedical science plus 12 months experience in an approved lab.

Bachelors in Education (BEd Hons) degrees allow a direct route into teaching without a PGCE.

Degrees in Occupational Therapy, Physiotherapy, Radiotherapy etc etc are required in order to register as OT's, physio's or radiotherapists.

Vetinary science is a requirement to be a vet.

To name a few.

I think a degree is about both education and preparing for a career. It is also part of my job to discuss with students what their plans are on graduation, getting work experience, how to prepare CV's and covering letters etc etc etc.

What we need to avoid is teenagers in schools and with parents who don't tell them that businses studies might be the worst thing to do if you want to get on in business and reading maths or ENglish at Oxford will mean you're more likely to succeed in business (or accountacy of course). I don't think the fact my daughter did an arts degree has been a problem for her at all. In fact it probably made it easier for her to get into the university she wanted than had she been applying for medicine or dentistry or veterinary medicine etc.

I agree with that actually. Same as all the would be lawyers doing A level law - not necessary or really even relevant.

He will prob. ending reading philosophy and English, or some joint honours thing involving some combination of Philosophy/English/History/Classic civilisations. But he's no David Cameron - he's too dreamy to have a bigger plan at the moment. A nightmare really! The only thing I can honestly see him doing is teaching. of course there are thousands of other things - but he has no idea what, yet.

Inseen, a BEd is not nearly as respected as a degree followed by PGCE. The other examples you give are just the beginning of a route. And medicine is actually one of the few degrees which is 'vocational' but respected. I'd be suprised if most high earning lawyers did a law degree and likewise teachers doing a BEd.

fivecandles, actually a Pharmacy degree, MPharm (not pharmacology, which is different and does not allow registration as a Pharmacist) is only as much the beginning of a route as a Medical degree. On completion of a four year MPharm degree, students will complete a pre-registration year, followed by a final set of exams after which they can register with the Health Professionals Council (HPC). A similar procedure is also true for Biomedical Science, except that most courses have the required year working in a lab built into the course as a sandwich year. Both of these are respected degrees and entry requirements for the former are similar to those for medicine. This is not all that different to medicine where you first complete a BMedSci degree (3 years) and then enter a further two years in pre-registration posts before being able to register with the General Medical Council (GMC).

You stated that: "No degree is a route into a job except medicine." and "You always have to do a further qualification like a PGCE". I am simply pointing out that you do not always have to do a further qualification like a PGCE, there is a direct route. Yes, it may be less respected, but I don't believe your original point was how respected the direct route to e.g. teaching was.

Other examples, as I pointed out above, are pretty much the same as for medicine.

Further, degrees such as Pharmacy and Biomedical Science are the only way into those professions, so a degree in Chemistry, Pharmacology, Biochemistry etc etc, for example will not allow you to register as a Pharmacist. Likewise, a biology degree will not allow you HPC registration to work as a Biomedical Scientist.

"And medicine is actually one of the few degrees which is 'vocational' but respected."

Well, it's the only one that a certain sort of pushy middle class parent sees as acceptable for their daughters, if that's what "respected" means. In other contexts, it's just two first degrees.

There's nothing like being pedantic is there? What I meant was the VAST MAJORITY of degrees do not lead directly into a job. For MOST jobs you would need to do a further qualification or start at the bottom. Most degrees are not intended to be 'vocational' and often the more vocational they are the less respected they are and indeed the less likely they are to lead to a vocation (Media Studies and Business Studies being obvious examples) with the most obvious exceptions of medicine, dentistry, veterinary science and pharmacy.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that I was being pedantic. I gave some examples of degrees which were vocational degrees and respected. You then stated,

"Inseen, a BEd is not nearly as respected as a degree followed by PGCE. The other examples you give are just the beginning of a route".

I am simply pointing out that this statement is incorrect. As an academic teaching on one of those degrees and as this is a public forum, I think it is necessary that if factually incorrect information is given about entry into a career, this should be corrected. Otherwise potential students may be mislead that their degree leaves doors open for them that it may not. I am sorry if you perceived this as offensive.

Personally I'm not sure I would could degrees such as "Business Studies" and the like as being vocational. I'd only really call a degree vocational if it leads to a career path which is otherwise unavailable. However, these degrees are IMO some of the most useful because e.g. Pharmacists can either work as Pharmacists but are still eligible for jobs that most Chemists are eligible for. Similarly Biomedical science. People with this degree can either work in hospital as Biomedical Scientists or they can go for most of the same careers as someone holding a biology degree.

"What I meant was the VAST MAJORITY of degrees do not lead directly into a job. For MOST jobs you would need to do a further qualification or start at the bottom. "

Civil engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, computer science: most reputable degrees will provide automatic entry to professional bodies, which you don't need to practice in the UK anyway. Yes, you might need some professional exams later, but doctors need to pass their MRCP as a minimum in order to get into whatever specialist registrar posts are in new money. Chemical engineering I assume is the same, but I don't know in detail.

"indeed the less likely they are to lead to a vocation (Media Studies and Business Studies being obvious examples) "

Being obvious examples of what? Media studies degrees have never been even slightly intended to be practitioners' degrees, any more than an English degree is intended for aspiring novelists. If people are silly enough to think that a media studies degree is a pathway to journalism, that's kind of bad, but the qualification is about analysis and understanding, not doing. Business studies you're probably right, but graduate employment from those courses isn't bad.

But the examples you give are in no way typical in that they require an additional year at least and even then further qualifications etc before you are actually qualified or trained to work in that job.

I think you may have misunderstood my point slightly which was not that you don't need a degree to get a job but that a degree is usually just the FIRST STEP to getting a job.

The fact remains that the vast majority of university courses are about education and not job preparation and assuming that a degree will lead directly to a job is probably naive beyond belief.

Some of the hardest courses to get on to and the most respected are also the most traditional but often also the least obviously related to any job like philosophy and literature but, IMHO, that makes them no less important or valid.

Pharmacy requires a pre-reg year. After that you are qualified and can practise. Medicine requires 2 "pre-reg" years after obtaining your basic 3 year medical degree before you qualify. For biomedical science the year of practice is usually included as a sandwich year in the course.

Of course a degree is no guarantee to a job (and for subjects such as Chemistry is often only considered a "starting" qualification and a PhD is required to get a good job).

I do think however, that "respected" depends on your viewpoint and what you want to do with the degree. Personally I don't think I would encourage my ds's to study philosophy for example, but that is just me. I would still say that a university (and in particular a student's personal tutor) should encourage students to think about what they want to do with their degree and help/advise them on ways to achieve their longer-term career goals. I found some of my university lecturers and my PhD supervisor to be some of the most inspiring people I have ever met in terms of helping me to consider my career and what options were open to me etc etc. They have also been of great help beyond my studies, within my longer term career.

Well I don't think there's anything there that conflicts with what I've been saying Unseen. Your examples of Medicine and Pharmacy and biomedical science have a year or 2 year bit which allows you to practise which is addition to the standard 3 year degree.

By 'respected' I mean a degree in media studies or business studies or journalism is probably not going to be particularly valued by most businesses or media industries as well as not being taken very seriously in society generally. In contrast, philosophy or eng lit, while not directly opening doors to any career, are traditional subjects which mostly respected in terms of intellectual rigour. A philosophy or latin or english graduate can go on to be a teacher or lawyer or whatever and so can a media studies graduate but their degree may rightly or wrongly have less kudos.

fivecandles, you were trying to make a distinction between medicine and other subjects. Biomedical science also usually includes the year of practice as a sandwich year i.e. before graduation.

I'm also not really convinced that society in general does take degrees in subjects such as philosophy (apologies to any philosophers) particularly seriously. However, people taking degrees in subjects such as philosophy, ancient greek or latin at old universities often come from more privileged backgrounds where more doors are open to them in the first place. In this way, the vicious circle continues.

FGS, but it's still an additional year! Most 3 year degrees do not provide a direct route into a particular career. Most careers require additional qualifications and/or training and/or starting at the bottom.

Yes, there is a lot of snobbery in education and in the workforce and in society at large. I'm not saying it's right that there is prejudice towards media studies where there is less towards philosophy but it is. There is also a perceived lack of intellectual rigour in less traditional subjects where there isn't in Latin or even Eng lit.

The reality is you might well find it easier to get a job with a degree in philosophy (esp if it was from Oxford) than you would with a degree in Media Studies even if the job was in journalism! But either way you'd have to have something else going for you - contacts, experience or start by writing the classifieds for free in your local rag.

No it is not. All sandwich degrees are 4 years. Not all offer the professional status of being able to register on the HPC register. Many other science degrees are also sandwich courses, but are not vocational in terms of they do not offer entry into a defined career. Not all degrees are 3-year degrees you know! I am just comparing like-with-like.

Also, I think that for society at large, philosophy is not considered an intellectually rigorous degree. It is not the degree which is considered more rigorous it is that the person doing the philosophy degree is more likely to come from a background where he or she will have doors opened due to other contacts.

But that's my point Unseen which you seem to be deliberately missing. Most degrees last 4 years. If you are doing a sandwich degree or other extended degree like medicine then you are doing at least an extra year in ADDITION to a conventional degree which prepares you for a particular career in a way that most traditional degrees do not.

It doesn't matter how much you argue the nitty gritty the fact remains that MOST degrees are only the first step (however necessary) towards a career and are more likely than not to be unrelated to the world of work.

As for popular perceptions of philosophy or Eng Lit vs Media Studies or Business we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is plenty of evidence from tabloid headlines to the opinion of various experts to suggest that more modern courses are felt to lack intellectual rigour.

Have you heard of the list of non preferred subjects held by RG universities? This would suggest that even at A Level subjects like Media Studies are not considered equal with subjects like Eng Lit.

'The lists are said to contain subjects such as law, art and design, business studies, drama and theatre studies ? non-traditional A-level subjects predominantly offered by comprehensives, rather than private schools.

The London School of Economics is thought to be the only top university to publish its own list of "non-preferred" subjects. Cambridge University did so until last year.'

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/aug/20/a-level-subjects-blacklist-claim

3 years that should say. Most degrees last 3 years.

Although I'm not denying that there's a link between what is perceived to be intellecually rigorous and what is traditional/elitist.

fivecandles, a biomedical science degree is 4 years INCLUDING the sandwich year. A good proportion of science degrees these days are 4 years. Therefore the year is not IN ADDITION in comparison with other (non-professional) science degrees.

I would however, agree with you that most degrees are only a first step. I simply wanted to clarify your point that medicine stands alone in this, as there are other exceptions out there, where you train for a specific career.

I am an academic in a RG university and every year I interview UCAS applicants as part of my job. I can't say as I've heard of a list of non-preferred subjects, but then, due to the subject they are applying for, most of our applicants have science/maths A'levels. Our applicants come from a range of backgrounds and are generally not biased towards private schools (though obviously I can speak here only for my own subject area). However, on a slightly different note, it is unfortunate though that although many applicants are straight A-students, many are still lacking in the basic understanding of their subjects at interview. Many also fail in basic arithmetic skills at interview.

FGS. Most degrees last for 3 years. Surely you understand that?

Therefore degrees which last four or more years are the exceptions? Still following?

A sandwich year is by definition an extra year.

Dear God. And you work in a RG university?

And you haven't heard of 'non-preferred' subjects.

Well, I despair.

[Bangs head against wall]