University Fees

[Xenia]

I see that Lord Browne in his report may apparently suggest (Sunday Times today):

• rights for universities to charge fees of up to £10k a year rather than the £3200 or whatever it now is perhaps from 2012

• removal of cheap loans for children of the middle classes (presumably even if their parents are not prepared to help them)

• interest rate susidies on loans going up 2%

• students who go into high paid careers will have to pay back more than they borrowed perhaps capped at 20%

• and one which pleases me - parents will be able to avoid the graduate tax for their children if they pay the fees in advance. None of my older 3 children took out student loans as I paid as I wanted them to be in the same position when I graduated in the days when there were no fees paid by students.

However the report is not yet finished and he may recommend abolishing the cap on tuition fees and let the free market rule which may be wise.

*work harder doh

Mamatomany, Xenia did quite clearly say "we work terribly hard in England and particularly London". I have worked in London and I don't agree with her.

For the record, I don't think it's fair that students in Scotland and Wales currently pay no tuition fees.

I think Xenia is probably referring to examples like the very long hours worked in the City of London, which are probably higher than hours in other cities on average.

Is the lack of tuition fees in Scotland and Wales a bribe or just relective of the fact that their populations' political convictions are, traditionally, further to the left than England's and that it is felt that the state should bear the burden of these fees?

Call me Pollyanna but I think it's the later.
With a happy secondary bi-produt being the former for the Labour party.
Still doesn't make it fair though.

Does anyone now if residents of Scotland and Wales only get free tuition if they study in Scotland and Wales, or are their fees paid by the state wherever they go?

I was a bit confused as we live in wales but DH is certainly racking up tuition fees. I found this: 'oWelsh universities could charge the £3,000 (index-linked: £3,225 for 2009-10) but students living in Wales could get a non-means tested subsidy of up to £1,940 a year, which does not have to be repaid. '

Now, it seems we don;t actually meet residential criteria either (not sure why, been ehre a few years now) so even though we're Welsh dwelling (and have a Welsh child) we don;t get free either.

TBH, that annoys me far more than when we were in England: our taxes here are going to fund other people's education whilt we still rack it up. At least if we lived elsewhere the money was being at least potentially able to be spent locally.

Free prescriptions I can't justofy tbh except that I think it's right; I remember being working poor in England and Dh adn I going without medication becuase we were in that classic trap of being on the cut off. Id happily see otehr things scrapped to cover the prescriptions but you know what? you need an Assembly / similar body. It seems ridiculous you haven;t got one, and there should be a buffer between UK wide Government and England that has mroe national interests at heart.

Ah I see here

It's Scottish that get it free

Welsh students might get a means tested bursary but that isn;t the same as universal free tuition is it?

Makes sense now.

Yes, we support the free university education for the Scots. Of course people in London work harder. For a start more of them are actually in work rather than lounging around all day on the dole. No one on here could dispute that there are more people on benefits in Wales adn Scotland, NW and N of England.

Secondly the hours of work in London are much longer than elsewhere, particularly the City of London.

Thirdly, most new jobs created under Labour in the Norther were in the state sector where they are not exactly known for working 70 hour weeks. Therefore areas with more public sector workers have people working less hard.

Therefore we in London are working very hard to ensure Scottish students pay no fees and no prescription charges (as with the Welsh) and many of their parents can be idle as a career choice. We could cut them all loose I suppose. There are more people in London than the whole of Scotland.

Okaaaaaaay

There are no workers in Scotland and Wales and no unemployed people in London?

Ha ha ha

And the rates of unemployment in say Wales are all about deserving and sod all to do with extraneous factors such as infrastructure?

Right.

I am SO glad I am off out now!

Since when was London the whole of England anyway? I used to live in a aplce called SOmerset; if it has ceased to exist please tell me as I off going to drive there in ten minutes and frankly may as well save the bridge toll.....

I'm a northerner so no axe to grind ...but I do think that the average working day in London is probably longer than outside London if you take into account the long hours worked in the city.

But to be honest, I don't think it's fair that we have the disparity over fees in the UK, whatever the hours involved are.

Junior doctors do not do long hours any more. In fact they have been moaning about that because they are not being properly trained as a result. It's been in the Times for weeks. They are losing the ability to learn and have continuity because of short hours imposed on them.

The facts are that London in particular supports huge parts of this country as it says on the link someone put above and we work very hard to keep them including all those Scots with their free university education.

it is pretty unfair if you think how many benefit the scots get compared to england. maybe cameron could make major cuts there? just a thought

Do less scots and welsh go to university ?

There are more people in the south east than in any other part of the country and salaries there are generally speaking higher so obviously they - as a whole - contribute more to the economy. That does not mean that as individuals they work any harder (or longer hours).

What does seem to be unfair and almost unbelieveable, is that English students who go to a Scottish Uni pay a little under £2000 per year for tuition.

In contrast EU students are treated the same as Scottish students and don't pay any tuition fees at all. Does that seem fair to anyone?

I know this because DS2, who starts at an English Uni on Monday, had Edinburgh Uni as his second choice but didn't go in the end.

(Can I just reiterate the point that the free university is Scottish; in Wales there is a means tested grant for cewrtain people (ie not us even though we're max grant and 6 years residency) which is edging there but not the same)

Yes, the EU thing I think could be taken to court as it discriminates against English students wanting to study in Scotland compared say to the French studying in Scotland.

Loving the idea that you work harder if you work in London. Some of the cushiest jobs I've ever had have been in London whereas I've never worked harder in my life than I do in the public sector in the north. Absolutely bizarre to make such a generalisation.

I don't think that 'poor' children will suffer - no doubt they will continue to receive grants and subsidies. As usual, it's the middle class, middle income people who will really suffer.

We are considered to be in a very high income bracket but even we could no way afford to stump up £30k or anywhere near it, for our first two sons who are two years apart, without selling our house or slashing our outgoings. Only the very rich can do this without feeling it somewhere else.

The only truly fair way is to make everyone pay exactly the same irrespective of financial/marital status of the parents.

You will never eradicate the fact that some parents can and will fund their children the whole way through uni, but I think they are in a tiny minority. Trying to manipulate it in the name of fairness just causes huge unfairness to people who are not divorced or on benefits, or somehow 'disadvantaged' but nevertheless are not in a position to find extra thousands without selling their homes. Their children will end up with a student debt much bigger than someone who has the good luck to have a divorced/unemployed parent.

FellatioNelson I agree with everything you say.