University Fees

[Xenia]

I see that Lord Browne in his report may apparently suggest (Sunday Times today):

• rights for universities to charge fees of up to £10k a year rather than the £3200 or whatever it now is perhaps from 2012

• removal of cheap loans for children of the middle classes (presumably even if their parents are not prepared to help them)

• interest rate susidies on loans going up 2%

• students who go into high paid careers will have to pay back more than they borrowed perhaps capped at 20%

• and one which pleases me - parents will be able to avoid the graduate tax for their children if they pay the fees in advance. None of my older 3 children took out student loans as I paid as I wanted them to be in the same position when I graduated in the days when there were no fees paid by students.

However the report is not yet finished and he may recommend abolishing the cap on tuition fees and let the free market rule which may be wise.

Christ. These times.

Don't be poor, don't get ill, don't get old or you will get totally fucked.

"But what exactly is stopping your DCs from doing medecine or veterinary science, Mrs Doof?"

Um, maybe the fact that even with perfect grades it is quite likely you will be rejected from every university you apply to? Those are two of the most competitive subjects to study. And the kids who get onto them will be the kids whose doctor mummies and daddies have arranged summer hols work experience for them so they can put it in their personal statement.

And what about all those subjects that do not lead directly to a well-paid career? Are they worthless?

Might be better to take all the subjects that you don't actually need a degree to do, such as nursing, and allow people to train on the job rather than expecting them to get into a shitload of debt.

Note to self: make lots of money.

I agree, we don't have money but both of us have Phds and good jobs. We have to support elderly family. They rely on our financial and physical help. We are not uneducated, poor or unemployed and we know how the system works. However, it certainly puts me right off.

I thought you did need a degree to do nursing ?

Looks like most of these cuts are targeted at the children of middle earners (I can't see how class could be defined for something like this) - the wealthy can pay upfront and the poor can still have low/no interest loans.

DS wants to do medicine so we plan to save £50 to £70k so that he doesn't have to borrow any money.

We can only do that because we are in the very fortunate position that dh earns a good salary & we've cleared the mtge.

I agree it's not fair to people who simply have no choice but to borrow the fees & accom expenses etc.

Yes you do need one now, but it's quite a recent thing. In the past people were perfectly good nurses and didn't have degrees. It could go back to that, and it would be cheaper for everyone.

20% of parents are not paying 10k/annum for A-level students. That cannot be true. Maybe 20% are paying 10k/annum on average -- so that includes those paying 20k/annum and a selection who pay only the exam fees.

I'm not sure why you started this Xenia except as an opportunity to brag about your own high income?

Xenia referred to "middle class" -- I presume she actually meant "middle income" families? Or are class and income now generally accepted as equivalents? [confused foreigner emoticon].

I come from the American system so none of proposed changes in OP alarm me... but, it is sad that friend's very bright but disillusioned DD quit Uni before completing even the first year; from a poor family, so she got every bursary/subsidy going. She now owes 6.5k of debt and is unlikely to want to tackle Uni again knowing that her debt would only grow massively. I had a friend in High School who had a similar experience: very capable people never get to achieve their economic potential.

The idea of us saving £60K+ for both DCs to go to Uni is just unbelievable. And the likelihood is that it will cost a lot more than that in 15 years time.

I am SO naive about all this. I actually paid some money into the DCs savings the other day and felt really pleased that their savings were into 4 figures.

How in God's name are we meant to save for a pension, save for old age care, pay the mortgage, AND save £60K+ for Uni. As it is the DCs will probably end up living with us until they are 40 cos they won't be able to afford to move out.

Its shit. Really shit!

There are hardly any careers where you earn £200k pa for 40 years. In fact, are there any at all? Even if you average it out over the 40 years? You'd have to be earning an enormous amount over the last few years to make up for the lower-paid early years. Statistically I think this would put you in the top 0.5% of earners, so I'm not sure how relevant it is to university funding where surely you need at least 20% of the population to study at degree level.

I can see a time when some degrees take 5-6 years with a year full time then the rest part time alongside working - I'm thinking particularly of subjects such as nursing, teaching and social work (all of which I know have an 'on the job' component now anyway.

I suspect we will move towards people staying at home while they study as well.

10% of school pupils are privately educated, don't know whether there's a difference with sixth form. But it's still not exactly OK to set up a system where only 10% of the population can access higher education, and that's based entirely on wealth.

I thought it was only 7% privately educated?

oh deep joy. DS is in the process of applying to Uni now and had originally wanted to take a gap year during which he had hoped to get a job in the legal profession as he wants to read law. During a University talk at his school a few weeks ago parents/students were advised to think about not taking a gap year due to these possible changes in funding coming in. They seemed to think those going next year might be ok but not the year after. DS therefore spent a busy few days amending his PS and taking out all his wonderful gap year plans.

I don't see how many parents can afford to pay fees up front. We've struggled to get him through his two years of A levels at a private school with the light at the end of the tunnel being he would earn some money in his gap year and we would be off the hook financially/be able to provide for the other three DC.

"Except that many parents will not be able to afford to feed, clothe and pay bills for another adult" Yes that is true.

Maybe it is 7% privately educated. It's around that anyway.

We need to get away from this thing of degrees being seen as the 'best' qualification. (Saying this as someone who has 2). They are not better, they are just one type of qualification.

In the past (not that long ago), you didn't even need a law degree to be a barrister - you joined an Inn of Court and studied 'on the job' with a barrister, and some pretty excellent legal brains trained that way.

There seems to be this view now that in order for something to be worth doing, it has to be able to be studied academically and theorised - nursing being a prime example. Going back to nursing not requiring a degree would not make it a lesser career - it is a practical-based job and training should reflect that, rather than students having to do endless essays on different theories of patient care or whatever. A bit of this is useful but I don't see why this academic aspect has become so central [I'm not a nurse, so happy to be corrected on this by any actual nurses, but it's just something I've pondered looking at friends who have trained].

And you might not live near a university at all. For example, in Lincolnshire where there are only a handful of degree courses bases at former FE colleges.

Agree with fusciagroan's posts.

(a) No one will have to pay anything up front. They will only have to pay back the loans depending on their future earnings so even if you are from a poor home if you pick a career wisely and work hard then you should be able to clear the debt over the course of a career. it's ust the poor are more frightened of debt and big sums than the rich, no reason they should be unless their parents' and schools' expectations of them is that they will earn £20k a year not £100k.

(b) Anyone affording school fees at £10k a year can accord university fees of £10k a year.

(c) If this means market forces mean no one will apply for nursing or teaching then they can revert to how they were - on the job or short teacher training courses without too much harm.

(d) I thought I'd read somewhere that although abotu 7% of children on average are in private schools that is nearer 20% at sixth form level but I might be wrong... Ah yes I'm right - "Pupils in ISC schools account for more than 80% of the total number of pupils in independent schools in the UK. The UK independent sector as a whole educates 628,000 children in around 2,600 independent schools. The independent sector educates around 6.5% of the total number of schoolchildren in the UK (and over 7% of the total number of schoolchildren in England) with the figure rising to more than 18% of pupils over the age of 16. "http://www.isc.co.uk/TeachingZone_SectorStatistics.htm

Also some courses like law after your first degree the firm you go to pays the subsequent fees and quite a lot of university students get sponsorship by bodies like the RAF I think and others.

xenia, Ref (b) above, I have to beg to differ. DH and I have struggled to get DC1 through his two years in sixth form at a private school. We did it in the knowledge (we thought!) that when he finished his A levels and did a (working) gap year he would save as much as possible towards his university fees and get a loan for the rest.
Just because we paid 10k plus a year for two years does not mean we can afford to pay university fees. We have 3 other children to think about.

Xenia, you seem quite bright. How has it passed you by that it is not possible for every university graduate to earn £100k?

Out of interest, do any of your children actually have careers yet, or are you just assuming that they will do well?

'Anyone affording school fees at £10k a year can accord university fees of £10k a year.'

Well possibly but that's just the fees. Rent, food and books etc would probably double this figure.

As it is it's mainly the children of the very richest parents who train to be doctors. This is going to make things even worse but expand to other careers too.

It will be more expensive than now. My children have cost £10k a year at university all in.

What I wish more Governments would do is much much less. There are too many changes for the sake of change and no stability, particularly in education.

If the median wage is £23k people need to take that and a calculator and look at what they might earn (I see in today's paper many more people are choosing never to retire "nevertirees" they call them - they are happier and more motivated and I would expect to be one. My father worked full time to 77. If you see your career as going on to age 80 ou can calculate how long it will take to pay back student debt. If you're going to work 5 years until you can snare a man foolish enough to keep you as a housewife and never have much of a career thereafter then the sums look different - in that case you'd be better going to finishing school at 18 to find a rich husband.

It must be great to sit with a huge wage looking down on those who do not, and grinning madly as the ladder is pulled up preventing others from improving themselves.

We at present only have one, one of the reasons for that is university fees. It is hard for those who are comfortably off to understand how terrifying the prospect of uni debt could be.

Already many kids ar told that university is a waste of money and not for people like us, this will make it worse.