University Fees

[Xenia]

I see that Lord Browne in his report may apparently suggest (Sunday Times today):

• rights for universities to charge fees of up to £10k a year rather than the £3200 or whatever it now is perhaps from 2012

• removal of cheap loans for children of the middle classes (presumably even if their parents are not prepared to help them)

• interest rate susidies on loans going up 2%

• students who go into high paid careers will have to pay back more than they borrowed perhaps capped at 20%

• and one which pleases me - parents will be able to avoid the graduate tax for their children if they pay the fees in advance. None of my older 3 children took out student loans as I paid as I wanted them to be in the same position when I graduated in the days when there were no fees paid by students.

However the report is not yet finished and he may recommend abolishing the cap on tuition fees and let the free market rule which may be wise.

I find it quite amazing that as these are not in the eyes of the law children, but young adults, there should be any expectation of financial input from parents at all, and I see no reason why your parents' educational, financial or marital or health background should have any bearing on your funding status and application for a place whatsoever.

As an adult you should make a calculated decision that university is your investment in your future. You either want to take on the debt, and take your chances that it is ultimately the right thing to do for your career prospects - or you don't.

The fact that you may be lucky enough to have a parent who will help you out to a small extent, or leave you totally debt free and with a bottomless pit of a partying budget for next three years, is neither here nor there.

In the same way that some people are given deposits to get on the housing ladder by relatives and others are not - should we use taxpayers money to rectify that inbalance too?

Absolutely Fellatio. I can't think of another situation when an 18 year old is considered the responsibility of its parent.

Riven you said that poorer students will be discouraged from applying for medicine and dentistry because the fees are higher, so the debt ultimately greater, but surely if they can get onto a course in medicine in the first place, the chances of good employment in a related field are vastly improved over a cheaper, but less specific less well-regarded degree? It all about weighing up the risk v reward isn't it? And students from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds are given more help to pursue their course of course irrespective of the fees than your average joe from an average (but not affluent) background.

They are they ones whose parents may say 'We can afford for you to go to Nottingham to do geography, but not to Cambridge to do medicine. Either you take on all the debt yourself, or we help you, but you compromise.'

Yes, they can take those decisions. Perhaps parents of the poor scare their children too much about debt and risk and don't think about the longer term and bigger picture.

Fellatio I think you are taking a let them eat cake attitude which shows little understanding of the reality for the children of parents on low or no incomes. Yes, young people need to weigh up the long term benefits of study BUT the bit you miss out is that they actually have to LIVE (on virtually nothing) in the mean time. And for medical students that is a long, long mean time (5+ years). Sadly you can't eat and fund transport and books on what you are going to be earning in 10 years+. Medical students have to work such long hours that their ability to get paid work is severely limited also. I've just been teaching a would be medical student who has got to defer for another year because he couldn't afford to do the CAT exam (both his parents have died and he didn't want to ask for help from anyone else). For all these reasons medicine is becoming increasingly for the privileged only. But this is happenign to a lesser extent for any degree.

Yeah, I think the scottish government has gone too far with all its free this-and-that.

Soon prescriptions will be free and that irritates me. I can afford to pay for prescriptions and so can many thousands of others.

Free personal care for the elderly - completely unrealistic.

fivecandles I appreciate what you are saying about medicine, and perhaps the loan structure could be slightly different to allow fot this, but surely all students have to live on next to nothing? Haven't they always - even when it was a grant, not a loan? How many parents can actually afford to pay all their child's tuition and living expenses plus books etc for anywhere bewtween 3 and 5 years, out of their taxed earnings? As Xenia said, it can typically cost around £10++ all-in, and much more in some cases. So that's roughly 18k of gross earnings wiped out if you are on 40% tax (no calculator handy - made that figure up off top of head sorry if it's rubbish, but you get my drift!!)

Given that the vast majority of people on above average salaries would still say they would struggle to afford private school fees, how are they supposed to manage that?

So most parents would offer to pay some, assuming they could, and expect the child to use a loan for the rest. The number of parents in a position to fund the whole lot for all their children is, I'm sure, very small indeed.

But there a great many people feeling under enormous pressure to at least partially fund their child's degree when they can ill afford it, whilst others are given subsidies by virtue of the fact that they are divorced, even though collectively both parents may have a greater income than the married couple. There are so many of these anomalies - it's madness.

I meant 10k all-in per year obviously.

£30k upfront for two kids. How lovely it would be to be able to afford that plus living costs on top. No chance unless we both take second jobs. Bring back proper apprenticeships that will pay for the degrees.

And the figures I've given are based on tuition fees now - not after a massive price hike.

It's true about the inequalities of the poor with regards to higher education; however this could apply with a lot of different scenarios.

For example there are a lot of professions where you have to volunteer, often in London or Brussels for next to nothing and so you can only do this if your parents fund you or you fund yourself through massive loans. Political researchers, journalists, are all good examples.

I agree with the overall sentiment that an 18 year old is an adult and should not be funded in relation to their parents' wealth. I know a lot of wealthy parents, for example, who do not value education and would want their children to join them in their businesses. I doubt they would fund their children should they want to do a degree in History for example. They would see it as a waste of time/money.

I think you're missing my point fellatio which is that even if your parents can't afford to pay tuition fees up front and rent and so on (and of course few can) most medical students can at least rely on their parents to lend them a fiver for a decent meal or the bus fare to their lecture. what happens if you have to pay for your tuition fees and rent and food and are incurring massive debts in the process and then literally run out of funds but can't borrow a hundred or two to see you to the end of the month from your parents? Well that leaves you no choice. If you can't get to lectures you have to drop out. Or like my student with no parents who couldn't even afford to take the exams in the first place he can't even start the course. I think there are lots of things which middle class parents and their kids take for granted like even the support to drive around or pay for transport to visit universities and go for interviews and computers and equipment. If you have no financial support at all and are faced with mounting debts it must be almost impossible and probably impossible for most people.

And what happens if after making it to medical school you then fail your exams in the first year perhaps because you've had to take on a part-time job to literally get together enough money so that you can continue to eat?

It does make me angry when people say, 'Yeah, well these people will be earning thousands in another 10 years'. Yeah but that's in ten years and 10 years is a very, very long time to live not only with nothing but with astronomical debt.

in the mean time if they are very poor they get more sums from the Governmetn now, as I understand it which are not available to children of the rich whose parents choose not to pay them a penny nor to let them live at home in holidays.

But the person in your example already receives a maintenance grant that will cover the lion's share of his fees doesn't he? Or in the case of medicine, at least severely dent them? Whereas the child with the parents who have an unimpressive low to middle earned income does not. I do understand what you are saying, and of course for a student who has absolutely no support network whatsoever, but is very bright and therefore able to study medicine in spite of its gruelling timetable there should be help - and there are, in the form of burseries.

And if he is an orphan he will be in receipt of some type of housing benefit package? Don't know how this is squared with being given a maintenance loan though, and whether he is expected to fund his rent out of that or not.

I've just looked at the government website to calculate funding and it seems you stop being eligible for any help other than the standard loans when your parents earned income hits around £50K. Any amount of income in the form of benefits is not taken into account as far as I can see, so someone bringing in say £30k of earned income will have a child living on roughly £500 per year less, in terms of money available to them either in a grant or as a part of a loan.

Yet the benefits family could be living on a gross package of well in excess of that £30K once HB etc, free school meals etc are taken into consideration and compared as a whole to the equivalent earnings that would be needed to live to a similar standard on an earned salary.

If your parents live together and both work bloody hard to bring in £50k, and you have several younger siblings at home then it's highly unlikely they'll be in a position to help you with fees, or living expenses away from home AT ALL. The difference between the 'living out' and 'living in' maintenance loans is on average around £1000, for parents at £50k plus, getting smaller the higher the income, so roughly £200 a week at best. After rent, food, social life, travel, and of course books, there would be little if any left, and that will all go on their overdraft, so many of these kids will pick universities close to home and continue to live at home to keep costs down. They are limited in their choices by their parents' income to a greater degree that the student in receipt of the full maintenance grant - who has roughly £3k of potential debt per year wiped out before he even downs his first pint in the SU bar!

I totally take your point on board that medicine is far more accessible to students from wealthy backgrounds, but please don't assume that just because a student has two parents in stable employment those parents are going to be in a position to help him or her out.

Plenty of parents who are just getting by, on an earned income not much above a total benefits package (when all things are taken into account) will get precious little or no help at all.

And what of the child whose father earns £150K per annum, but lives down the road because he is divorced from the mother - and that mother earns £15k 'pin money' for herself, get a nice cheque each month in child maintenance, has had the mortgage all paid off in her divorce settlement, and gets 50% discount on her council tax?

Unless I'm being very thick and missing something obvious it seems to me he gets the same maintenance grant as a child whose parents earn nothing, or your orphan boy, just because he lives with his mother!

It seems you can earn any amount and still have full contact with your child, but totally abdicate any financial responsibility at further education stage simply by divorcing and moving out. Most bizarre. I'm thinking of suggesting it to DH to be honest.

yes, and the divorced one can also make a court applciation for help from the father at university which I tyhink is ther eason my divorce settlement says I pay the 5 children's school and university fees whoever they live with to avoid any of them making one of those claims against him later. Whereas a child at hoem with undivorced parents has no right (except in Scotland) to require any support from a parent which is indeed correct. We don't in England have a system where adult children are entitled to financial support as some countries do. In Italy I think it is you can sue your parents for not supporting you even into your 30s.

I haven't checked the rules but if your parents have a high income presumably you can only get a student loan for the university fees not your rent food etc Is that right?

"if your parents have a high income presumably you can only get a student loan for the university fees not your rent food etc Is that right"
Above a certain income - middle income rather than high - students will only get 72% of the maximum loan (and this percentage applies if the parents income is £70k or £700k.)

.. the 72% applies only to the maintenance loan, I think that all students can get the full tuition fee loan.

Yes that's what I thought about the tuition fee loan - anyone can get it.

I had a contract with my children in writing that in return for my funding them at univesrity they would take on no debt.

'please don't assume that just because a student has two parents in stable employment those parents are going to be in a position to help him or her out.'

I'm not.

But I'm not talking about being able to pay for the fees which is covered either by the state for low incomes or by loans. I'm talking about the money that is literally required to live - food, transport and then books and equipment.

'But the person in your example already receives a maintenance grant that will cover the lion's share of his fees doesn't he?'

Well, no, what I said is that this boy did not even have the money needed to sit the CAT exam needed to apply for medicine. I've just looked at the website. It's £60.

Therefore he cannot go to university this year.

You really have no idea how much support and financial assistance most medical students take for granted even where their parents are not able to afford tuition fees.

The reality is that there aren't many students from parents who are just above the threshold either. Most medical students have high earning parents (often doctors themselves).

I'm not 100% sure Xenia, but I think the basic student loan for fees applies to everyone, and is a flat fee. The maintenance loan (for living expenses) is on a sliding scale according to the income of the parent you live with, and is also available to everyone. Then people who have parents on a low earned income, or no earned income are eligible for a maintenance grant, which is again on a sliding scale and seems to stop at about £30k. But obviously to find out exactly what you can and cannot get you need to make a formal application so it's quiet difficult to find out accurately from just inputting test figures into the system as I have been doing!

What I'm not sure about is what happens if I for example, refuse point blank to contribute, because I decide for whatever reason that it's not a good choice for my child. As we are on a high income does that mean he has to fund the whole lot himself, or would he be eligible for a grant to cover his fees, the same as someone whose parents couldn't pay if they wanted to? Either way, it's not the child's fault.

This is why it's all a nonsense. And back to the orphaned med student - he could have been left homeless and penniless and been in care since a small child, or he could have been the son of a barrister and a GP who both died fairly recently leaving him a million pound house and nice insurance payout. As far as I can tell it make no difference whatsoever to his eligibility for a full maintenance grant.

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will tell me.

Anothe scenario: Single mum, lives on benefits/minimum wage, has three kids. She gets a new partner who has no children and a good job. She and her children move in with him and one year later her child makes a uni application. On the basis that the child lives with the mother's new partner, his income is taken into account when calculating his entitlements, and he is entitled to nothing other than loans, on the assumption that if there is a shortfall the poor childless new partner should take up the slack.

Meanwhile Dad lives round the corner.....

Again if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will tell me. I hope to God I am wrong!

The vast majority of medical students (and all students) leave university with significant debt. What you are saying is that a child with parents who have low or no incomes will potentially leave university with less debt because they don't pay as much in tuition fees etc.

But I don't really get how that's an argument in favour of going to university if you are in straightened circumstances i.e. you may leave university with £15,000 of debt instead of £20,000.

Less debt is not the same as more income and as I keep saying you still need something to actually live off in the 10 years while you are training to be a doctor.

But I would dispute this anyway because Mum and Dad who earn £50,000 are still able to help out much more than Mum and Dad who earn nothing.

Your orphan with the million pounds would have to declare this money surely.

Sadly, my student is very far from this scenario.

Sorry fivecandles - I misunderstood, I though you meant your were a uni lecturer and this boy was already reading medicine but needed to defer a year - I didn't realise he hadn't started.

I'm not saying that some students don't face terrible difficulty and a lack of support, financial or otherwise, and of course in instances like this it is quite right that they are given help to reach their potential. But he is in a small minority in very unusual circumstances surely.

In a rush of misguided social engineering and attempts to right supposed inequalities thousands of children from bog-standard backgrounds (or their parents) are being penalised.

FN many people find that and the new richer man finds that his new wife/girl friend is then sayign my poor little teenager cannot now get support at university because if your high income so come on cough up.. and yet that man might have otherwise been paying towards his own children's university costs but he's guilt tripped into preferring his step family over his first family.