Spousal Maintenance?

[Unknown83]

I've begun discussing a financial settlement with my STBXW and we've come to a sticking point on spousal maintenance. Fairly normal disagreement I guess, she thinks she should get 62% of the assets (around £170k) and spousal maintenance for life whereas I think after the 62/38 split we should have an immediate clean break. I'd be grateful for other people's experiences and what a likely settlement would look like:

Me: Husband, age 40, earn £90k approx
Her: Wife, age 39, SAHM retraining, earning capacity of around £20k and potential to earn more over time (with the right incentive!)
Marriage: 11 years
Assets: Equity £100k, Pensions £150k. Other than mortgage, only outstanding debts on cars with net asset value of around +£24k.
Children: 3 (all boys aged 6, 8 and 12). Split will be 8 nights her and 6 me.

We're generally agreed on an asset split. She'll get £80k equity, her car and loan with net £15k value and £75k pension and I'll get £20k equity, my car worth £9k net and £75k pension.

The sticking point is on spousal maintenance. I'm of the opinion that once she's got her income (around £1,400 net), universal credit (around £500 net) and child maintenance from me (around £750 a month) then the total of £2,650 should be more than enough to live on without "undue hardship." I'd also have to pay her well over £500 a month for spousal maintenance to be worthwhile because universal credit drops £ for £.

I should also explain that to get my good salary I have to spend around £6k a year commuting to London. So after taxes, commuting, continuing to pay for things like private medical insurance for the children and child maintenance my monthly income is only going to be £800 more than hers a month and as she's getting something like £70k more in assets from me and my mortgage interest is going to be a lot higher than hers for years I think that is fair enough. I've worked out it will be at least 9 years before I catch her up and that's assuming she doesn't progress in her career (she did not have a career to compensate prior to children either, she was doing a minimum wage job before the children were born).

Her opinion though is that she shouldn't have to work until DCs are in secondary school, that she should have a higher income than me to be "fair" and that when child maintenance stops I should carry on paying her to make it "fair" because she's had to "stay at home to look after the children and sacrifice her career." My counter argument is that I want the children 6 nights in every 14 including week nights so she can go and get a job like everyone else.

One other thing to add is that I won't see much of the last £15k of my salary already. £6.5k will be tax, £6k will be commuting costs and about £2.25k will be child maintenance so I'll get about £250 of it! Not a lot for the 4 hours of commuting on office days (and I'm not sure where I'll find the time to run a household on my own even though I can WFH for my days with the kids). I've warned my wife that if she pursues the spousal maintenance issue then the logical thing for me to do will be to quit my London job and take something locally where my earning capacity would be closer to £60k per annum and her child maintenance would drop substantially. Presumably a court would consider that a reasonable adjustment so that I can spend more time with the children rather than slaving away to fund a lazy ex who refuses to get a job?

[quote Dacquoise]@LittleOwl153, I totally agree. The housing issue would be decided on what's affordable. Is exW able to house herself and the children for the level of income you are suggesting ie without maintenance. She would be expected to contribute to her own expenses but £20k will not raise a lot of mortgage. It depends whether the equity plus her income is enough to house her and three children. Do you have any idea what she would be able to buy in your area?[/quote]
I think there are two possibilities.

1. She gets 80% of the equity in the house (£80k). She can get a mortgage from a lender who recognises child maintenance, universal credit and child benefit as income. A broker I spoke to suggested she could borrow £150k. This would be enough in the local area for a help to buy house where she initially owned 75%. The cost of the mortgage would be around £600 and she would have a few years before needing to buy the rest but would have a big enough income to overpay by about £200 straight away.

I think she would be better off with this option than a Mesher because she will take a bigger chunk of the equity and be fairly certain of being able to buy a two bedroom flat later on without difficulty.

2. We agree a Mesher, but for five years rather than fourteen. By then there should be enough equity to split and she could boost her earning capacity (so, an incentive for her to get off her backside and do it) but I would expect a bigger share than 20% as compensation for use of my mortgage capacity (say, 2% extra equity each year until sale) and having to rent for five years and I would expect her to pay the mortgage and repairs in full on her own.

3. The option I really don't like, a Mesher until the children are all 18. Likely outcome an expensive court battle to force her out in 14 years time at the same time knowing she has kicked the problem too far down the road and lacks the mortgage capacity to buy anything else.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

Can I just say one thing. She will be the mother of your children for life. The relationship you have with her will shape them and their lives forever. You are being horribly disrespectful in the language you use to describe a woman you loved enough once to marry and have two children with. I think you should reflect on this and see whether you can switch to a more respectful approach for all your sakes.

It is perfectly possible to negotiate the finances without being so rude about her.

It's funny but nobody EVER says this when it's an ex wife slagging off her "cocklodger" of an ex husband do they? Why is that?

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Unknown83 - lots of people say that about my family member too. Excuses all the time about how it’s all not her fault and it’s just so hard on her looking after kids on her own (even though she doesn’t). One boyfriend after another, moving all the time. Constantly getting fired or walking out of jobs. Even when the dc were old enough to get their own jobs, cars, etc she was constantly expecting them to run around after her.

Your ex wife cheated, never managed to get any sort of career or even well paid job (in fact seems to have quit asap) and according to you pays no attention to her own children and doesn’t even seem to have done much childcare. Is she really the best parent to provide a home base for your kids?[/quote]
Do you know anything about family court processes?

Cheating, having lots of boyfriends, putting up with horribly judgemental people, etc doesn’t have ANY bearing on how the assets are split. None whatsoever… that gets resolved with the dissolution of the marriage and once they are not married she can sleep with the world, their dog and your husband without it having any bearing on her finances.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

Can I just say one thing. She will be the mother of your children for life. The relationship you have with her will shape them and their lives forever. You are being horribly disrespectful in the language you use to describe a woman you loved enough once to marry and have two children with. I think you should reflect on this and see whether you can switch to a more respectful approach for all your sakes.

It is perfectly possible to negotiate the finances without being so rude about her.

Sorry but I came here to vent and say what I really think. I don't think my kids would benefit from knowing how lazy she is, it's something I will keep to myself or share anonymously! I think quite a lot of people would be quite surprised to hear me here as I'm very reserved offline.

I'm just venting because I've spent the last 14 years - 11 married -being used. The last 3 years she's used the lifestyle I sacrified my 20s for sleeping with other men in hotels. She's deliberately avoided ever contributing financially. She demanded to be a homemaker, did the bare minimum and now cries about sacrifices made. And as the "breadwinner" I'm about to lose most of what I've worked hard for with the threat of being used as an ATM by this person possibly for the rest of my life. So it's annoying...

In terms of the relationship. What will actually happen. I won't call her lazy to her face, I'll just think it. The relationship I want with her is a professional, business like one. Courteous and strictly in accordance with what we agree.

Which housing option, if any, is she agreeable to?

@Dacquoise

I'm not sure intentionally reducing your earnings would be looked on favourably in court in the same way as her avoiding getting a job to contribute to her own expenses. I can understand your bitterness but you need to find a solution to this issue. You can literally waste tens of thousands of pounds arguing like this. Like I said my DPs exW lost £50k arguing a principle.

I understand what you mean about reduction of income but I have circumstances that would make it look reasonable. I currently do a job in London that involves an expensive commute and I receive a weighting of £15k to do it. From that £15k the first £6.5k goes out as tax. The next £2,250 is paid in Child Maintenance. The next £6k is spent on trains. I get £250 of that money. To get that £250, three times a week I have to get up at 5:30am and commute to London. I leave the house at 6am and I don't get home until 8pm. For £250 a year.

If I chose to do the same job but in my local town my salary would drop to £70k and I could quite reasonably point out it wasn't worth my while going to London because I derived no benefit from the extra 4 hours a day three days a week and the time I gained back was in order to share childcare more evenly. My STBXW's child maintenance would fall by around £2,700 but that would serve her right for pushing her luck.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Unknown83 - lots of people say that about my family member too. Excuses all the time about how it’s all not her fault and it’s just so hard on her looking after kids on her own (even though she doesn’t). One boyfriend after another, moving all the time. Constantly getting fired or walking out of jobs. Even when the dc were old enough to get their own jobs, cars, etc she was constantly expecting them to run around after her.

Your ex wife cheated, never managed to get any sort of career or even well paid job (in fact seems to have quit asap) and according to you pays no attention to her own children and doesn’t even seem to have done much childcare. Is she really the best parent to provide a home base for your kids?[/quote]
I'm going to become more diplomatic because I think I've slated her too hard in my ranting and venting, which is my issue not hers. It's one thing for me to say it but actually I've just realised by hearing you repeat back to me that I've gone too far. So I'm going to rein it in.

I would like her to spend less time on her phone and be more engaged with the children, especially their education. However, they love her and I have no reason to believe that they would not be safe even if they could be getting more attention. The relationship that they have is still important and still needs to be preserved. The only thing that could change that is if she brought a man into the house that rang any alarm bells (although most of the men I've caught her with were sad, pathetic married men looking for a thrill and with no intention of a relationship).

@bluesky45

Are you sure the universal credit payment is correct? It seems a lot considering her wage and kids ages, compared to what we get (similar wage, less universal credit, DC are younger). They will also expect her to work as the DC are over 3. Other than that, considering the spilt it on 50:50, it seems more than fair to me, I would certainly not expect spousal maintenance and certainly not for more than once the youngest is out of primary school at the absolute maximum!

It's what EntitledTo has thrown up so I can't be 100% certain.

@GrandmasCat - it’s not relevant if I know anything about court processes. I was talking about what’s best for his kids based on my experience of a woman who is similar to his ex wife (based on his description). She wanted me to pay her to be the nanny for my dds. Even though it would have been so much cheaper than the professional nanny, no way would I have left my kids with her.

@GrandmasCat - im a single mum so I don’t have a dh for her to sleep with. Regardless of whether or not you wish to judge her, if I was the father of the children I would seriously consider if it’s in their best interests to live with her. Especially as he says he can care for them.

@Unknown83 - fair enough. I would keep an eye on it though. You don’t need to have them lose the relationship but equally she doesn’t have to be the main caregiver.

@GrandmasCat

Alas that is true. You can treat your spouse with utter contempt but it would seem the question whether it is abusive or not largely hinges on who the higher earner is. As I'm the higher earner apparently I'm immune to being abused and gaslighted over her many affairs and I am expected to hand over most of the assets in divorce. That's the law and I have to lump it. I would just rather not have any ongoing financial ties with a person I cannot trust.

OP, please see a lawyer and see what the courts are likely to accept. Do not agree to anything until you take advice - the court will review any agreements for fairness anyway. Its my understanding thar spousal maintenance is rare and people are expected to work. Your wife may need the kick up the bum that an impending drop in living standards will bring.

Secondly get a clean break - it means she can't come after you later. Divorce is a nightmare but finalising it and knowing that you are done with a financial drain for good = priceless.

Furthermore, getting a job in your local town seems like a better idea - you don't seem to benefit much from the extra money and you would be able to manage childcare better, without the commute.

I live in North America and have recently separated. I am currently paying my exH spousal maintenance just because he is earning $15k less then me. We have three kids and they all live with me, but only one is a minor. My ex pays me child support but because I pay him spousal he actually gets more money. Our mediator told me I would have to be paying him forever, or until he is earning same as me. I agreed because I initiated separation and felt bad. However, when I hired a lawyer, she told me that, although the official calculator they use to establish the amounts for child and spousal care do say I have to pay, the court probably would not award it to him since he is capable of earning at least the same as me (he has always been earning more but lost his job due to Covid). In the end I offered him 14 months of spousal support and he agreed, but even that is unfair, I know, however I wanted to be generous to him. It is stupid, I know.

There is something I find confusing. You say:

I understand what you mean about reduction of income but I have circumstances that would make it look reasonable. I currently do a job in London that involves an expensive commute and I receive a weighting of £15k to do it. From that £15k the first £6.5k goes out as tax. The next £2,250 is paid in Child Maintenance. The next £6k is spent on trains. I get £250 of that money. To get that £250, three times a week I have to get up at 5:30am and commute to London. I leave the house at 6am and I don't get home until 8pm. For £250 a year.

Do you currently pay Child Maintenance for child(ren) from an earlier relationship? Or are you speculating on the CM you would have to pay post-split?

@GrandmasCat

Careful there, one of my friends got 80% of the assets and spousal maintenance from someone with half your salary after it was defined that the wife was not lazy, but the marriage and the expectations of her husband damaged her income potential and put her in a position where it was unlikely she would be able to earn a good salary for years to come.

Another one got the above plus half of his pension and a Mesher order with exH having to pay half of the mortgage.

Your STBXW doesn’t even have a job yet, retraining doesn’t equate having a job no matter what the potential earnings could be. She may get maintenance on a needs basis, which means it can decrease if her salary goes up but she can also ask for it to be increased if her income goes down or your salary increase.

A lot of women don’t get spousal maintenance but you seem to have enough assets and a big enough income for her to get it if she fights for it.

I've been thinking about this again and the outcome makes absolutely no sense. Are you sure these friends didn't just get nominal spousal maintenance? And how many assets were there to divvy up?

Let's take the example of a "breadwinner" on £45k and assume two children with an EOW split of contact. That person will take home £34k net a year and pay around £7k in child maintenance from that. After that, their monthly income will be £2,250. Now consider the scenarios for the receiving party:

1. If the SAHP's children are both under the age of 3, then they would not be expected to work and would get UC of £9,600 a year. They would also get about £1,800 in child benefit plus the £7k in child maintenance. That would provide a combined net income of £18,400.

The payer of spousal maintenance would have to pay £9,601 before the receiver was £1 better off, by which point the SAHP's income would be £18,401 but the payer would be down to £17,399! If they were working full time, the payer would actually be taking home less than the minimum wage by this point and surely a judge would ask the receiver why the payer should even bother getting out of bed in the morning?

Also, if the payer has been subject to an 80:20 split, then when exactly are they allowed to "catch up?" In this scenario, the payer would barely be able to afford rent in most parts of England let alone any other expenses.

You even added a scenario with a Mesher and the husband paying half the mortgage. Paying with what after spousal?

I think we can safely say in this scenario an appeal would be warranted.

2. In the next scenario, the kids are a bit older so the SAHP is expected to work 25 hours a week to get UC. At minimum wage, this is about £11.5k a year. Net that's about £11.25k. Universal credit has dropped slightly to £7.6k and child benefit and child maintenance is still £1.8k and £7k respectively. That's a combined income of £27.65k, more than the paying ex is getting after child maintenance.

Why on earth would a court then decide that the hardship was so great on the spouse with 80% of the assets that they still need spousal maintenance? On this occasion, our payer would have to pay £7,601 before the recipient benefits by £1 at which point the incomes will be £27.65k and £19.4k. If on top of this a substantive amount is paid to make it worthwhile claiming, again, why would the payer bother getting out of bed? And likewise where is the mortgage coming from for the Mesher scenario?

3. Okay, teenagers now. SAHP is expected to work full time. Minimum wage again so that is now about £16k and net of about £14.6k. UC is down to £5.7k and CB and CM stay the same. Total income of £30.5k which is almost as much as the payer was earning when they were a family. Payer would still have to pay £5,701 just to make the receiver £1 better off so an income drop for them to £21.3k and then a further drop to make SM worthwhile. Same question, why get out of bed and now how on earth can the receiver claim a need if they are maximising their earning potential?

There must be a lot more to these cases because it is quite self evident that the payers don't have capacity to pay and the receivers cannot prove a need.

@SueblueNZ

There is something I find confusing. You say:

I understand what you mean about reduction of income but I have circumstances that would make it look reasonable. I currently do a job in London that involves an expensive commute and I receive a weighting of £15k to do it. From that £15k the first £6.5k goes out as tax. The next £2,250 is paid in Child Maintenance. The next £6k is spent on trains. I get £250 of that money. To get that £250, three times a week I have to get up at 5:30am and commute to London. I leave the house at 6am and I don't get home until 8pm. For £250 a year.

Do you currently pay Child Maintenance for child(ren) from an earlier relationship? Or are you speculating on the CM you would have to pay post-split?

Oh sorry, I wasn't very clear. I'm speculating on what the situation would be post split.

@freeatlast2021

I live in North America and have recently separated. I am currently paying my exH spousal maintenance just because he is earning $15k less then me. We have three kids and they all live with me, but only one is a minor. My ex pays me child support but because I pay him spousal he actually gets more money. Our mediator told me I would have to be paying him forever, or until he is earning same as me. I agreed because I initiated separation and felt bad. However, when I hired a lawyer, she told me that, although the official calculator they use to establish the amounts for child and spousal care do say I have to pay, the court probably would not award it to him since he is capable of earning at least the same as me (he has always been earning more but lost his job due to Covid). In the end I offered him 14 months of spousal support and he agreed, but even that is unfair, I know, however I wanted to be generous to him. It is stupid, I know.

Divorce in the USA seems much more screwed up than in the UK although I guess it depends on the state?

Op, as far as I know there are no appeals for this, you get two opportunities (hearings) to agree to something in court and if you don’t, you go for a third and final hearing where the judge decides for you. What happens in the third hearing is a pretty much a lottery so any good lawyer would suggest to avoid getting to it as much as you can.

With regards to these women, I don’t know how much maintenance they got or if they are still getting it but one thing the judge got right is that despite their best efforts, the ex wives’ income remained relatively low (below the breadline) while both husbands, I suspect, are earning well over £100k. Having said that I moved away a few years ago and have lost track of them so I really don’t know what the situation is now.

I used to help women who were victims of domestic abuse to prepare for court (more hand holding than anything else) so I learned about some of the outcomes but I don’t know how many of the cases evolved after that. The only thing I would say is that I found it so baffling how inconsistent court is, it is impossible to predict which way things will go as everything is managed on a case by case basis.

@silentpool

OP, please see a lawyer and see what the courts are likely to accept. Do not agree to anything until you take advice - the court will review any agreements for fairness anyway. Its my understanding thar spousal maintenance is rare and people are expected to work. Your wife may need the kick up the bum that an impending drop in living standards will bring.

Secondly get a clean break - it means she can't come after you later. Divorce is a nightmare but finalising it and knowing that you are done with a financial drain for good = priceless.

Wanting a clean break and getting one are sadly two different things! I guess my STBXW must have a price though.

@GrandmasCat

Op, as far as I know there are no appeals for this, you get two opportunities (hearings) to agree to something in court and if you don’t, you go for a third and final hearing where the judge decides for you. What happens in the third hearing is a pretty much a lottery so any good lawyer would suggest to avoid getting to it as much as you can.

With regards to these women, I don’t know how much maintenance they got or if they are still getting it but one thing the judge got right is that despite their best efforts, the ex wives’ income remained relatively low (below the breadline) while both husbands, I suspect, are earning well over £100k. Having said that I moved away a few years ago and have lost track of them so I really don’t know what the situation is now.

I used to help women who were victims of domestic abuse to prepare for court (more hand holding than anything else) so I learned about some of the outcomes but I don’t know how many of the cases evolved after that. The only thing I would say is that I found it so baffling how inconsistent court is, it is impossible to predict which way things will go as everything is managed on a case by case basis.

Right, hang on, this is very, very different now! These husbands are both likely to be on over £100k? That's a bit different to paying SM on £45k! Also, by appeal, I meant seek a variance. Matters on which the door stays open like spousal maintenance, as I understand it, can keep going back to court to deal with changing circumstances.

Also, I think welfare reforms in 2013 changed the landscape a bit. I think someone getting an income, UC, CM and CB like my STBXW would have a hard time arguing they still had needs unmet, even generously interpreted.

My understanding is also that whilst the courts remain a lottery factors like the welfare reforms and cases like Waggott and Wright vs Wright have started to reflect modern society where people are expected to work for a living even if they have the care of children and these can be expected to be followed by the courts.

Everybody has a price, even justice has one, just be careful op, don’t fill yourself with resentment to the point you cannot rebuild your life or start making life difficult for your children.

It is sad when things get so bitter that the hate felt for an ex can overpower the love felt for the children. You are not yet there, but be careful not to fall on that trap, at the end of the day, there are no winners in divorce, everyone comes out of it financially worse off at least for a good while.

Yes, as I said that was a few years ago. Wives stayed in low incomes while husbands continued developing their careers. It happens all the time.

And yes, she will be expected to work for a living but that doesn’t necessarily mean her needs will be ignored because she has a job (which she doesn’t have yet), as the courts will make decisions to benefit your children first, while trying to leave you in an equal footing at least to start with.