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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Spousal Maintenance?

312 replies

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 15:44

I've begun discussing a financial settlement with my STBXW and we've come to a sticking point on spousal maintenance. Fairly normal disagreement I guess, she thinks she should get 62% of the assets (around £170k) and spousal maintenance for life whereas I think after the 62/38 split we should have an immediate clean break. I'd be grateful for other people's experiences and what a likely settlement would look like:

Me: Husband, age 40, earn £90k approx
Her: Wife, age 39, SAHM retraining, earning capacity of around £20k and potential to earn more over time (with the right incentive!)
Marriage: 11 years
Assets: Equity £100k, Pensions £150k. Other than mortgage, only outstanding debts on cars with net asset value of around +£24k.
Children: 3 (all boys aged 6, 8 and 12). Split will be 8 nights her and 6 me.

We're generally agreed on an asset split. She'll get £80k equity, her car and loan with net £15k value and £75k pension and I'll get £20k equity, my car worth £9k net and £75k pension.

The sticking point is on spousal maintenance. I'm of the opinion that once she's got her income (around £1,400 net), universal credit (around £500 net) and child maintenance from me (around £750 a month) then the total of £2,650 should be more than enough to live on without "undue hardship." I'd also have to pay her well over £500 a month for spousal maintenance to be worthwhile because universal credit drops £ for £.

I should also explain that to get my good salary I have to spend around £6k a year commuting to London. So after taxes, commuting, continuing to pay for things like private medical insurance for the children and child maintenance my monthly income is only going to be £800 more than hers a month and as she's getting something like £70k more in assets from me and my mortgage interest is going to be a lot higher than hers for years I think that is fair enough. I've worked out it will be at least 9 years before I catch her up and that's assuming she doesn't progress in her career (she did not have a career to compensate prior to children either, she was doing a minimum wage job before the children were born).

Her opinion though is that she shouldn't have to work until DCs are in secondary school, that she should have a higher income than me to be "fair" and that when child maintenance stops I should carry on paying her to make it "fair" because she's had to "stay at home to look after the children and sacrifice her career." My counter argument is that I want the children 6 nights in every 14 including week nights so she can go and get a job like everyone else.

One other thing to add is that I won't see much of the last £15k of my salary already. £6.5k will be tax, £6k will be commuting costs and about £2.25k will be child maintenance so I'll get about £250 of it! Not a lot for the 4 hours of commuting on office days (and I'm not sure where I'll find the time to run a household on my own even though I can WFH for my days with the kids). I've warned my wife that if she pursues the spousal maintenance issue then the logical thing for me to do will be to quit my London job and take something locally where my earning capacity would be closer to £60k per annum and her child maintenance would drop substantially. Presumably a court would consider that a reasonable adjustment so that I can spend more time with the children rather than slaving away to fund a lazy ex who refuses to get a job?

OP posts:
RandomMess · 25/01/2022 17:53

Well you have decided what you want so not sure what advice you want 🤷🏽‍♀️

Stick to your guns, she may force it to court which with cost you both £££££ but a clean break would still occur.

Like I said focus on the very end result.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:54

@CandyLeBonBon

I think you are right and the only people who get spousal in our income band are people who agree it out of court. The welfare changes in around 2013 that introduced the concept of spousal maintenance making what eventually became universal credit fall £ for £ meant that actually the less your ex-spouse made, the more you would have to pay in spousal maintenance to "bridge the gap."

For example, my wife does not currently earn any money at all and is eligible for around £900 a month provided that she is looking for work. I would have to pay her £901 for her to be £1 better off and I clearly cannot afford to do that.

If instead she maximised her current earning capacity she would probably get universal credit of about £500 and would be around £600 worse off than me overall. I would have to pay her £550 just for us to be even but she would struggle to prove a need for that extra £50 (and I can easily prove a need - commuting, clothes for work etc etc).

I estimate someone would need to be earning around £120k a year before it was worthwhile paying spousal maintenance to a SAHP who didn't work. It makes far more sense to just do a jaunty asset split.

I just wish my STBXW would realise its not the 1980s anymore so that we could move on.

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Undertheoldlindentree · 25/01/2022 17:55

"My opinion is if she won't get a job then she won't need a car so she can sell that and live off the £15k"

She will need a car to run the children around, surely?

TwuntyFriend · 25/01/2022 17:57

I just wish my STBXW would realise its not the 1980s anymore so that we could move on

Sadly OP there are a lot of people (men and women) who want everything handed to them instead of working for it. How any woman wants to be financially dependent on a man is beyond me. Each to their own.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 18:00

@Runnerduck34

Really you need solicitors advice, oy they can really advise you but I think given the circumstances, morally some spousal maintenance is reasonable. Alternatively you could go for 70/30 split of assets and no spousal maintenance, your income and earning potential is a lot higher than hers and she has made a valuable contribution by taking on all childcare and enabling you to work without caring constraints, probably taking a hit on her own career prospects whilst doing so.
Have you even read the thread? What moral grounds are there for spousal maintenance to a person who spent the last three years cheating on me? Also, you obviously missed:
  1. The fact she never bothered having a career before children, so she'll easily go back to earning the same (and in fact will probably earn more thanks to being supported to retrain full time);

  2. She didn't take on all the childcare and probably does less than half at the moment even though we're agreeing an 8/6 split (I do almost all the weekends when they are not at school, her choice, and I also pick them up from school three days a week at the moment);

  3. My higher earning potential is thanks to what I did in my 20s, not any contribution she made.

Legally I agree there's a danger she has a claim. Morally though, she really doesn't. If she hadn't been married to me she would be like a lot of people our age living in rental without a penny to her name.

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Howshouldibehave · 25/01/2022 18:00

She sounds like she wants to sponge off you for life! I’d go for 50/50 on the contact and then a clean break with no spousal maintenance.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 18:02

@RandomMess

Well you have decided what you want so not sure what advice you want 🤷🏽‍♀️

Stick to your guns, she may force it to court which with cost you both £££££ but a clean break would still occur.

Like I said focus on the very end result.

Thanks. The advice I was looking for was really whether my position was "wrong." Sounds like I'm actually in about the right ball park and I can even demand a 50/50 split of assets if she digs in over spousal.
OP posts:
Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 18:04

@Undertheoldlindentree

"My opinion is if she won't get a job then she won't need a car so she can sell that and live off the £15k"

She will need a car to run the children around, surely?

Why? We live 5 minutes from a bus stop and 15 minutes walk from a train station. School is also 15 minutes away and the closest supermarket is 10 minutes away. The closest convenience store is 2 minutes walk away.

No need for a car unless she works. Or she could sell the one for £15k and get an old banger for £1k.

I certainly don't think someone who refuses to work needs a nice car.

OP posts:
disconnecteddrifter · 25/01/2022 18:06

Spousal maintenance on uour salary isn't a thing. My ex never really had a job. His dad was a lawyer. Retired. Tried to get me to agree to spousal. I paid £6k for a solicitor and was told that SM is if my partner couldn't get a job, not if they didng want to and they would have to provide evidence of all jobs they had properly tried to get as kids were in school. I also donr have to pay maintenance (but do have kids 60%). He has child benefit and I pay for anything they need as I can afford it but I don't have to. My thoughts were like yours.why should I have to pay and not be able to provide my kids with a good life because he couldn't be bothered to get a job. I reckon if you're thr responsible adult you shoild habe then more. She can prove you wrong and get her career and you'll all be happy. Stop speculating and actually go to a solicitor. It's what's best for the kids not what benefits parents. Oh and I'd be married 15 years.
Ps all amicable now

Hmum0fthree · 25/01/2022 18:25

@Unknown83 you stbxw want's to realise how lucky she is and how good she has it, its no wonder men decide to give up their career so they don't have to pay for their XW to sit on their bum

Slayduggee · 25/01/2022 18:31

She will get a shock when she puts her UC claim in. (Assuming no disabilities) as he youngest is 6 she will be expected to look for work for 25 hours per week.

caringcarer · 25/01/2022 18:36

The figures you have put up show you are being more than fair. I never wanted to claim spousal maintenance from my exh. I just wanted him to keep putting his kids first. In your place I would refuse to pay your ex but I would ensure I paid half of kids school trips etc.

Itsnotdeep · 25/01/2022 18:43

Have you spoken to a solicitor @Unknown83 - you really need to. You can't negotiate wtihout a basic knowledge of your rights and her entitlements.

Ime spousal maintenance is very rare in any case, and practically unheard of for life. Your wife has no disabled children or disabilities and appears well able to earn a living. No court would award her spousal maintenance for life, or even for a long period, if at all.

Re mesher order, I think these are fairly rare these days too.

Your pension will be considered an asset.

The first consideration or only consideration really is your children and how much each of you need to live and to support the children.

Honestly, go and see a solicitor, without that knowledge you can't negotiate at all.

Shehasadiamondinthesky · 25/01/2022 18:49

I'm pretty sure spousal maintenance for l;ife is no longer a "thing". Maybe in the US.
Most courts prefer clean break settlements now. However in order to have a clean break a consent order must be signed and there is no law to make people sign it.
This means they can come back again and again for more money.
I think clean breaks should be compulsory. I cannot imagine anything more hideous than being tied to a person for life financially.

CayrolBaaaskin · 25/01/2022 18:58

I bet if the sexes were reversed here, everyone would be calling the non working partner (in this case the wife) a parasite, cocklodger, etc. Why did you marry her? Did it never concern you that she didn’t have a career?

Op I think what you’ve offered is more than fair. Tell her that’s it. Clean break is best abs she needs a job.

Farahilda · 25/01/2022 19:04

Spousal maintenance is typically awarded only forba short fixed term tomallow someine who has been out of the workplace or part-time to retrain or update and seek a new psutiin. Age 39, I am confident that will be the situation.

It is only really awarded longer term these days when there has been a long marriage and either there are reasons why the spouse cannot return to work (children of the marriage require life-long care) or they are older and it bridges the gap between divorce and pension (although ageism is not meant to be a barrier to rejoining the workplace it still rears its ugly head especially if there is also a huge gap on the CV)

Dacquoise · 25/01/2022 19:10

If this were to go to court it would be decided on the needs of each party. You need to work out how you are going to split your assets so that each of you is housed and how much you need each month to pay your bills and feed yourselves. They would look at each party's earnings or earning potential. It's quite a basic calculation and I suggest you download a form E to give you an idea of what constitutes assets, income and outgoing.

Things to consider in your negotiations- how are you going each pay for your accommodation? Can you exW raise a mortgage on her income or does she need a larger proportion of equity to be able to afford housing? You can always offset keeping your pension in totality if she gets most of the equity. Then work out your basic living expenses and how that is going to covered. Do you need to supplement her income with some maintenance? Lifetime maintenance is very unlikely to be awarded on your level of income, more likely time limited, tapered maintenance to allow your exW to increase her earnings to cover her expenses.

Wikivorce is a good website to have a look at. You can post your numbers and ask the experts there to come up with potential settlements. There is more than one way to cut a cake but try to avoid court if you can. My DP spent £100k arguing about spousal maintenance because his exW thought she was entitled to a lot more than she ended up with.

BTW it doesn't matter who did what to whom in terms of financial settlements.

Rainbowqueeen · 25/01/2022 19:11

I think what you have offered is fair. What confuses me is the split for caring for the children if you think she is such a terrible mum.

Crimeismymiddlename · 25/01/2022 19:44

You definitely need legal advice. However, I agree with you, she needs to get a job, I can not believe how easy some people have it and I don’t blame her for trying to keep on the gravy train but she won’t get SM, that is for very wealthy people who have had long marriages.
I think most courts go clean break-it is the healthiest, best way-with luck she might find a new man to bank roll her.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 19:50

@CayrolBaaaskin

I bet if the sexes were reversed here, everyone would be calling the non working partner (in this case the wife) a parasite, cocklodger, etc. Why did you marry her? Did it never concern you that she didn’t have a career?

Op I think what you’ve offered is more than fair. Tell her that’s it. Clean break is best abs she needs a job.

To be fair, most people are basically saying that here!
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Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 19:52

@caringcarer

The figures you have put up show you are being more than fair. I never wanted to claim spousal maintenance from my exh. I just wanted him to keep putting his kids first. In your place I would refuse to pay your ex but I would ensure I paid half of kids school trips etc.
I expect to pay for all of those things, she's incapable of budgeting and I'm not having my kids embarrassed at being the ones missing out on school trips or wearing rags to school.
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Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 19:57

@Rainbowqueeen

I think what you have offered is fair. What confuses me is the split for caring for the children if you think she is such a terrible mum.
I never said she was a terrible mum. She'll make sure they're clean and fed and she'll get them to school on time. I'm not going to get a call from social services or anything like that.

What she isn't very good at doing is:

  1. Budgeting or earning money, which I can address through child maintenance to avoid the heating going off or food running out; and

  2. Paying attention when there's something more interesting on her phone.

Unfortunately I have to work to provide them what they need and this passable level of care will have to work. I can make sure they get plenty of engaged attention from a parent when they're with me (bear in mind they don't always want my attention too)!

OP posts:
Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 20:00

@Dacquoise

If this were to go to court it would be decided on the needs of each party. You need to work out how you are going to split your assets so that each of you is housed and how much you need each month to pay your bills and feed yourselves. They would look at each party's earnings or earning potential. It's quite a basic calculation and I suggest you download a form E to give you an idea of what constitutes assets, income and outgoing.

Things to consider in your negotiations- how are you going each pay for your accommodation? Can you exW raise a mortgage on her income or does she need a larger proportion of equity to be able to afford housing? You can always offset keeping your pension in totality if she gets most of the equity. Then work out your basic living expenses and how that is going to covered. Do you need to supplement her income with some maintenance? Lifetime maintenance is very unlikely to be awarded on your level of income, more likely time limited, tapered maintenance to allow your exW to increase her earnings to cover her expenses.

Wikivorce is a good website to have a look at. You can post your numbers and ask the experts there to come up with potential settlements. There is more than one way to cut a cake but try to avoid court if you can. My DP spent £100k arguing about spousal maintenance because his exW thought she was entitled to a lot more than she ended up with.

BTW it doesn't matter who did what to whom in terms of financial settlements.

Wikivorce is a bit out of date and doesn't respond to questions very quickly anymore. In terms of needs, if my wife doesn't get a job we can't meet even our most basic needs. My concern is that a court would decide "oh well, as she doesn't work, he can go off to work and just see them EOW then. That way he can live in a bedsit and mum can stay in the FMH. That way the children's needs are met."
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FanGirlX · 25/01/2022 20:01

@Antiqueanniesmagiclanternshow

You sound horrible to be honest, the way you are speaking about the mother of your children. If she gets a full time job are you going to share all the school holidays and all their days off for sickness?
Just because she's the mother of his children doesn't mean she can't get a job 😂
Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 20:01

@Crimeismymiddlename

You definitely need legal advice. However, I agree with you, she needs to get a job, I can not believe how easy some people have it and I don’t blame her for trying to keep on the gravy train but she won’t get SM, that is for very wealthy people who have had long marriages. I think most courts go clean break-it is the healthiest, best way-with luck she might find a new man to bank roll her.
Pros and cons to that. She's had multiple partners and I worry about who she might bring near the kids. That's the point at which I might have to demand more than a 6/8 split depending on what she drags in.
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