Spousal Maintenance?

[Unknown83]

I've begun discussing a financial settlement with my STBXW and we've come to a sticking point on spousal maintenance. Fairly normal disagreement I guess, she thinks she should get 62% of the assets (around £170k) and spousal maintenance for life whereas I think after the 62/38 split we should have an immediate clean break. I'd be grateful for other people's experiences and what a likely settlement would look like:

Me: Husband, age 40, earn £90k approx
Her: Wife, age 39, SAHM retraining, earning capacity of around £20k and potential to earn more over time (with the right incentive!)
Marriage: 11 years
Assets: Equity £100k, Pensions £150k. Other than mortgage, only outstanding debts on cars with net asset value of around +£24k.
Children: 3 (all boys aged 6, 8 and 12). Split will be 8 nights her and 6 me.

We're generally agreed on an asset split. She'll get £80k equity, her car and loan with net £15k value and £75k pension and I'll get £20k equity, my car worth £9k net and £75k pension.

The sticking point is on spousal maintenance. I'm of the opinion that once she's got her income (around £1,400 net), universal credit (around £500 net) and child maintenance from me (around £750 a month) then the total of £2,650 should be more than enough to live on without "undue hardship." I'd also have to pay her well over £500 a month for spousal maintenance to be worthwhile because universal credit drops £ for £.

I should also explain that to get my good salary I have to spend around £6k a year commuting to London. So after taxes, commuting, continuing to pay for things like private medical insurance for the children and child maintenance my monthly income is only going to be £800 more than hers a month and as she's getting something like £70k more in assets from me and my mortgage interest is going to be a lot higher than hers for years I think that is fair enough. I've worked out it will be at least 9 years before I catch her up and that's assuming she doesn't progress in her career (she did not have a career to compensate prior to children either, she was doing a minimum wage job before the children were born).

Her opinion though is that she shouldn't have to work until DCs are in secondary school, that she should have a higher income than me to be "fair" and that when child maintenance stops I should carry on paying her to make it "fair" because she's had to "stay at home to look after the children and sacrifice her career." My counter argument is that I want the children 6 nights in every 14 including week nights so she can go and get a job like everyone else.

One other thing to add is that I won't see much of the last £15k of my salary already. £6.5k will be tax, £6k will be commuting costs and about £2.25k will be child maintenance so I'll get about £250 of it! Not a lot for the 4 hours of commuting on office days (and I'm not sure where I'll find the time to run a household on my own even though I can WFH for my days with the kids). I've warned my wife that if she pursues the spousal maintenance issue then the logical thing for me to do will be to quit my London job and take something locally where my earning capacity would be closer to £60k per annum and her child maintenance would drop substantially. Presumably a court would consider that a reasonable adjustment so that I can spend more time with the children rather than slaving away to fund a lazy ex who refuses to get a job?

@GrandmasCat

Yes, as I said that was a few years ago. Wives stayed in low incomes while husbands continued developing their careers. It happens all the time.

Yes, but in my case my career has developed because of the groundwork I laid in the early 2000s which my STBXW spent drunk or watching television. I find the automatic assumption that she must have contributed to my career in the 2010s offensive to be honest. The only impact she has ever made on my career is a stern telling off from IT for receiving so many emails from her!

@GrandmasCat

And yes, she will be expected to work for a living but that doesn’t necessarily mean her needs will be ignored because she has a job (which she doesn’t have yet), as the courts will make decisions to benefit your children first, while trying to leave you in an equal footing at least to start with.

Until six months ago our family of five lived on around £3.3k a month net and around £300 of that was spent on loans that are paid off.

I'm afraid I'm having a hard time understanding why her imputed income of £2,850 would not be enough for a family of one adult plus three children part time to live on now.

Like I've said before, I think her end game is to be able to carry on sponging off me once the youngest turns 18.

So MN is the 'home' of misogyny now. Awesome 👏🏼

Any settlement you need to give your STBEW is for the benefit of your DC not her. Stop trying to short change your DC. I mean it is them you care about right?

I am sure you are nothing but respectful to your STBEW - although your entire thread says otherwise. Your STBEW has a price! What a truly horrible thing to say.

People have affairs - it's usually a symptom of a miserable marriage.

BTW wonder how many hours of screen time you achieved on this thread? Just saying...

Honestly, if she was that bad, why did you stay with her for that long? Was she really always drunk? If so, who was taking care of your children while you were busy at work? Was she always on the phone or just in the evenings after a long day with the children?

For what is worth Op, you don’t need to agree with me or prove me wrong, you asked for an opinion and that was mine but neither I or anyone in this thread can provide assurances on how things will go in court, this is one of those things were you have to brace, go through it and hope for the best.

Spousal maintenance isn't awarded usually these days except in exceptional circumstances. Then it would be considered but on a sliding scale and not for life.

It's not uncommon for spousal maintenance to be paid for a few years whilst she retrains for work** and reestablishes her career.

If there is enough equity to house you both then equity is split 50/50. If not then she could end up with more equity but you'd keep more of the pension pot.

This is how family courts divide assets. There is no blame, no one person responsible, just the judge trying to find the best way forwards for the children.

If I were you I'd make sure she had enough to provide for the children and take it to court in the meantime. This may take a while. This will give you both a fairer division. Aim to be fair, to you *both.
*

@Bogisbunceandbean

So MN is the 'home' of misogyny now. Awesome 👏🏼

Any settlement you need to give your STBEW is for the benefit of your DC not her. Stop trying to short change your DC. I mean it is them you care about right?

I am sure you are nothing but respectful to your STBEW - although your entire thread says otherwise. Your STBEW has a price! What a truly horrible thing to say.

People have affairs - it's usually a symptom of a miserable marriage.

BTW wonder how many hours of screen time you achieved on this thread? Just saying...

You quite clearly haven't read the whole thread, you've made a knee jerk reaction to one post you don't like because you don't know the context and I am not going to bother replying to anymore of your drivel.

@GrandmasCat

Honestly, if she was that bad, why did you stay with her for that long? Was she really always drunk? If so, who was taking care of your children while you were busy at work? Was she always on the phone or just in the evenings after a long day with the children?

For what is worth Op, you don’t need to agree with me or prove me wrong, you asked for an opinion and that was mine but neither I or anyone in this thread can provide assurances on how things will go in court, this is one of those things were you have to brace, go through it and hope for the best.

I never said she was always drunk. I said she was drunk a lot in her twenties. See, before we met, the difference was I went to university then I got a job and did professional qualifications.

My STBXW worked casually for several years after leaving school at 18 and spent all her money on nights out getting drunk. Getting drunk was the cool thing to do in the early 2000s, we all did it sometimes, but some more than others...

That's the reason I have a career and she doesn't. That's why when the kids came along she thought "oh, I earn less than childcare costs, there's no point me working." Over time that has evolved to "oh, what about the holidays" and the usual drivel SAHPs come up with when they don't want to share financial responsibility for the household and keep things static as "breadwinner/homemaker" 1950s style. My wish to spend a bit more time with the children largely went ignored until lockdown created the opportunity.

Now, you ask about the phone. Well, I was with you once. I thought she just spent all evening on it. Turns out I was wrong. Since I worked from home I learned she was on it for about 75% of her waking day. Early lockdown we were both busy with the kids but when they went back to school that was another eye opener. The amount of time she spent every day sat in front of the television whilst simultaneously staring at her phone is incredible. No wonder I needed to help her out by doing all the cooking, vacuuming and laundry all these years!

My wife's serial cheating completely changed my perspective of her and it's like I've been awoken from a spell. I have lost touch with a lot of family and friends over the years as she wanted to move near her parents but since leaving I've reached back out and a lot of people have said I was wise to leave. It's also nice to be able to develop my own strategies for bringing the kids up without being shouted at or belittled. I want to create an environment for the children where they can laugh without being shouted at for being too loud in front of the telly. Where they can be encouraged in their education rather than doing the bare minimum. Where outings can occasionally involve enriching activities rather than the consumption of junk food. I think it will be best for all concerned.

@beautifullymad

Spousal maintenance isn't awarded usually these days except in exceptional circumstances. Then it would be considered but on a sliding scale and not for life.

It's not uncommon for spousal maintenance to be paid for a few years whilst she retrains for work** and reestablishes her career.

If there is enough equity to house you both then equity is split 50/50. If not then she could end up with more equity but you'd keep more of the pension pot.

This is how family courts divide assets. There is no blame, no one person responsible, just the judge trying to find the best way forwards for the children.

If I were you I'd make sure she had enough to provide for the children and take it to court in the meantime. This may take a while. This will give you both a fairer division. Aim to be fair, to you *both.
*

Fairness, even outright generosity, I can do with the assets. What I don't want is ongoing financial ties other than a payment of child maintenance. My reason for this is not entirely financial. Whilst I'll no doubt be forced to play the form E game and maximise my own needs to avoid being exploited by her the reality is I don't need a lot of money and I'm not that motivated by it. My ideal home in retirement is a studio flat where everything is nearby!

My real concern is being ordered by a court to earn money for someone else's benefit because presumably that comes with a loss of freedom? My ideal divorce would be one where I keep doing my job whilst I have children to provide for but where I can take an easier, lower paid job when the youngest is 18. However, presumably if I have to pay maintenance I won't be allowed to do that and I will be expected to carry on in the misery of my current job until I'm 68 or - more likely - in the early grave it sends me to?

OP, you are tying yourself in knots about a situation which is unlikely to happen. Get a lawyer, go to court and agree a fair split and get it done. The relief will be immense.

Don't give away too many assets, just aim for fairness - remember you will need to retire at some point yourself.

CMS is the legal minimum you can choose to pay more.

You can offer a flat rate that is above CMS and state after 2 years it will be at the CMS rate (which could be higher or lower tbh)

I choose not to on the grounds that she's getting more of the assets. Me offering that would allow her to pull a fast one on the benefit system and I'll have no part in it.

You are incorrect here. You can pay as much child maintenance as you like and it will have no impact on her benefits and it would not be fraudulent for her to continue claiming.

Any spousal maintenance you offer will as you say reduce her UC and that would be £ for £ so it really wouldn't be in her interest to get spousal if she intends to claim UC.

Incidentally, children of 12, 8 and 6 don't really need playing with much. And it's them who benefit if ex has a car to use.

You sound very disrespectful of her and it sounds like it's absolutely for the best to end this toxic marriage - can't be nice for the children to be part of.

@oviraptor21

I can pay as much child maintenance as I like? That will be the CMS figure then. With an income of only £600 less than me, an expectation of only having to work part time and an extra £60k in assets I have absolutely no good reason to pay her any more than that.

As for respect, at least I keep my venting anonymous and online! She'll quite happily loudly proclaim how much more stressful her life is compared to mine even though she spends three quarters of it playing on her phone.

Op, you may well have good reason to be bitter towards your wife, we don't know, we only have your side, but regardless - I would advise you to try to remove (can't think of a better word) this bitterness when you negotiate all this with your ex/a solicitor/mediator, because it isn't helping anything.
That was the good thing about using a mediator for us - their presence made us be nice to each other!

@Bogisbunceandbean

I've actually been very careful to be gender neutral when talking about the legal position as opposed to my own unique circumstances because nowadays it's quite common that the person in my position is a woman. Maybe not 50/50 yet but I would wager in my age group it would be pretty close to it.

Incidentally there is a thread from a woman - the higher earner - about 5 down from this one who is annoyed about the likely asset split that will probably go in her exH's favour. She calls him lazy etc etc too. I notice you chose to reply to me and not to her. Any particular reason why?

Dont submit to Spousal Maintenence, it is very unusual to be awarded in court these days, if she wants to fight it in court it will cost her dear. You mention she has alcohol problems, that needs treating because she won’t hold down a job if it isn’t.

If you do decide to give extra child Maintenence make sure that is not funding her addiction

If it went to court they will also listen to what you want. My partners ex also wanted everything the house, spousal, more child maintenance & also didn't work. She was told to get a job, no spousal & awarded some pension but larger share of the house. I think in your position court ASAP would be the best option. Wish you all the best sorting it out

Thank you OP for your post up thread where you reflected on your language and said you realised you needed to change a bit. I do understand how difficult this is but things will be better for your children if you can rein in your language and also your emotion a little.

I do understand how frustrating and difficult the situation is and wish you and your children well.

@arethereanyleftatall

I'm quite good at being nice to her face (although also quite firm on this particular issue). Firm but fair seems to be the best approach. She hasn't met a solicitor yet and mediators are pretty hopeless at applying the law sometimes so maybe she just needs a reality check.

@Crazykatie

I think this thread should probably be closed now as people are picking up on things without the full context. I never said my wife had a drinking problem. She used to get drunk in her early to mid 20s. So did pretty much everyone else in the early 2000s! However, in her case it meant whereas I focused on my career, she worked the bare minimum for going out money. Hence the big difference in our respective earning power now. However, she is not and never has been an alcoholic!

@Neveragain85

I'm hoping she gets a decent solicitor who will set her straight on a few things but she'll probably get one of those "free for 30 minute" types who just want to start the meter. I spoke to one of those and they sounded very impressive but it quickly became obvious that they were just taking my side on everything and I figured that the real outcome would be different. A few barristers' posts on other sites have often said "normally a good outcome is where both parties feel the outcome was slightly unfair." To me, slightly unfair is her getting more of the assets. Making her an ongoing dependent, especially if she refuses to work, would be egregiously unfair!

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

I would never talk like this in front of people I know anyway so it's a moot point. However, to get decent advice here, I need to try and bring things back to the facts!

Hi @Unknown83, it might be worth either moving this thread or beginning a new one on the "Legal " board. There are plenty of legally qualified people on there that will be able to give you a better idea of the likely outcome given your circumstances and possibly suggest alternative divisions of assets etc.

Keep going, you sound like you love your children and want the best for them. Good luck!

No her solicitor encouraged her to go for it & no doubt made a lot of money out of this. Don't think his ex was best pleased with them after the court hearing. Solicitors make money out of all this anger but if you want the outcome to be fair & your ex isn't being fair it's the only option you have. Best to get it done ASAP then you know where you stand & can move on with your life

Not a hope in hell she will be awarded spousal maintenance.

My now OH’s EW demanded:

• £1k Spousal maintenance a month (she hadn’t worked for 10 years abs refused to go back to work)
• Mesher order for 12 years
• EH pay the mortgage in full for those 12 years
• £1k child main
• Half of all his pensions (she despite working for 15 years had cashed all hers in)
• A lump sum of £3k

He offered her many deals but she refused mediation and refused to discuss so it went to court.

Spousal maintenance was thrown out at tge first hearing. She was told to get a job abs start supporting herself.

She was awarded a Mesher order for only 4 years and she had to pay all the mortgage & maintenance costs. On sale of the house she got 62%.

EH agreed to child maintenance of £775 per month (considerably over the CMS guidelines) on the provision she didn’t ask for any mire money. Within a month of the consent order being agreed she was demanding more money. 18 months later he asked for a CMS assessment.

She got awarded some of a pension. Not the half of all of his pensions she was demanding. They had been married 9 years. He had worked for 26 years.

My advice would be to get a good solicitor and barrister. You want to be aiming for as clean a break as you can do you can both move on with your lives.

@NorthernSpirit

Not a hope in hell she will be awarded spousal maintenance.

My now OH’s EW demanded:

• £1k Spousal maintenance a month (she hadn’t worked for 10 years abs refused to go back to work)
• Mesher order for 12 years
• EH pay the mortgage in full for those 12 years
• £1k child main
• Half of all his pensions (she despite working for 15 years had cashed all hers in)
• A lump sum of £3k

He offered her many deals but she refused mediation and refused to discuss so it went to court.

Spousal maintenance was thrown out at tge first hearing. She was told to get a job abs start supporting herself.

She was awarded a Mesher order for only 4 years and she had to pay all the mortgage & maintenance costs. On sale of the house she got 62%.

EH agreed to child maintenance of £775 per month (considerably over the CMS guidelines) on the provision she didn’t ask for any mire money. Within a month of the consent order being agreed she was demanding more money. 18 months later he asked for a CMS assessment.

She got awarded some of a pension. Not the half of all of his pensions she was demanding. They had been married 9 years. He had worked for 26 years.

My advice would be to get a good solicitor and barrister. You want to be aiming for as clean a break as you can do you can both move on with your lives.

I guess the best negotiating tactic is to offer more child maintenance in order to prevent a claim for spousal. Get the clean break and then apply to CMS at the first opportunity.

However, I'm going to calculate the cost and shift my position on equity. I've tried to formulate a solution that puts us on an equal footing when the children are grown up, and after that she's on her own. Her proposal would make her a lot better off than me for life so I already know it's an unfair settlement.

Firstly I think you’re not being unreasonable in pushing back against what she’s seeking. She definitely needs to work and earn for herself. I think you’re probably winding yourself up over nothing because I can’t believe she would be awarded SM on your salary. 90k is not high earning territory.

Secondly though, your poor kids. You say you’re only venting anonymously but I doubt this, the level of bile in your many posts is off the chart so it seems unlikely to be contained to only this one thread on MN. Once this toxicity starts leaking out it doesn’t stop and before you know it you’re slagging off their mother to them because you’re so far down the rabbit hole of hate that you don’t even realise you’re doing it.

Wind it back, and approach it without emotion which is what the courts will do. They don’t care whether she’s had an affair, no affairs or several affairs when it comes to the financial settlement. Like a PP said, even once you’re divorced you’ll still be joint parents for the rest of your lives and you’ll have a whole series of events to deal with as co parents. The only people who will be repeatedly, negatively affected by you both not getting this right are your children. Put them first, like you keep saying you are.

To all the posters (I think it's unanimous) saying she won't get SM on a £90k salary. I did. 2021. His salary was £80k taxable income (self employed). Mediators suggested it. Until youngest is 14.
I honestly thought that was standard, and have only discovered through mn that it's not.

That was a response btw to all the posters saying you won't get SM off a £90k salary, (you clearly can), not specifically to the op as the difference must be how much you intend to look after them as opposed to your income.

@arethereanyleftatall

To all the posters (I think it's unanimous) saying she won't get SM on a £90k salary. I did. 2021. His salary was £80k taxable income (self employed). Mediators suggested it. Until youngest is 14. I honestly thought that was standard, and have only discovered through mn that it's not.

For life?