Is this sexual assault?

[Louloulouenna]

Hi there, I could really do with some advice. My 18 year old nephew has been accused of sexual assault.

He was out clubbing with an 18 year old school friend. At the end of the night they were kissing and he took her hand and placed it on his clothed crotch. She said she felt uncomfortable so they stopped immediately.

She is now saying that by placing her hand (gently) on his crotch this is sexual assault. Just to be clear she agrees with his version of events. Would really appreciate some opinions as his parents are in complete meltdown.

Ambiguous , in my world no , he was hoping for more , if she said no and he complied , that's the end of it .

She is more sensitive than that and sees it differently .

Unwanted sexual gesture but not assault

They re both adults, they kissed, he tried to move to 2nd base, she declined, it’s not assault

Well he has forced her to do something she didn't want. I hope he takes it as a life lesson to never do that again.

It's a bit of a jump from kissing to touching there (even through clothes). I thought the next "base" was breasts?

Touching there is the sort of thing you ask first!

Consent can be sexy you know.

Excellent that he stopped as soon as she said, but better would have been to check in first.

Would your response/views be any different had it been breasts? Or even kissing?

Even kissing (especially in a club where you can't 'hear' consent), is technically assault. Misread eye gaze, leaned in, pushed back.

Agree with another poster. Unwanted sexual gesture but not sexual assault. Good he stopped when she said she was uncomfortable. Has she reported him to the police?

Thanks for all the responses, it seems like it's a muddied area. For what it's worth, the girl initiated the kissing - sorry should have said that in my initial post.

No she hasn't reported him but is accusing him of sexual assault to their friendship group and sporting club.

What is she planning to do next? I doubt it would be taken forward by the police. I hope it’s enough for it to be seen as a lesson the boy has learnt for the future about consent though I am pleased that he is aware enough to have stopped when she told him no.

At 18 they are both learning how to negotiate relationships , and while I don’t like victim blaming I don’t think calling assault for an unwanted touch in this situation ( assuming the incident is as the boy has reported it and the touching went no further/ he stopped immediately) is appropriate.

i think the positive thing is that they both seem clued up enough to understand that other people might have different limits in their body autonomy, now they need to learn how to communicate those.

It does raise an interesting 'escalation' point, though. Which 'acts' are inferred, and which are explicitly consensual?

A man suggests going back to your place, you have kissed previously, he pushes you up against a wall and kisses you (alright so far), but then touches your breasts, but no consent was given.

Simular thing here. The kiss implied 'some' consent, and he was testing the water to see how far that consent went.

😂I completely agree. What is the world coming too.

Well that's what it comes down to isn't it - Is gently taking someone's hand forcing them? The girl concerned agrees it was "gentle".

If I was kissing a man, and he moved my hand to touch his penis, I would be horrified.

If that had happened to me at 18, I would have been horrified, but in the 80/90s we were not allowed to be horrified. We just had to smile and say "no thanks". But luckily, this generation of women are saying "F OFF! Don't you dare move my hand to your erect penis, you pervert" and then are going to their friends "It was absolutely sexual assault, how dare a man do that to me, and other girls go "yes, it is my body and my choice".

Thank goodness we are now in a situation where men are getting called out for their shitty, aggressive and unnecessary sexual advances.

Yuck.

What was he thinking? Surely he knew that if she wanted to touch his genitals she’s more than capable of moving her hand herself.

I think it's minor sexual assault yes.
They were just kissing. She consented to that.
Touching His Penis Is a much further step than that.

He made her do it. It wasn't her choice.

No man has actually ever done that to me when i was kissing them

I wouldn't like it.

Would you like a man to take your hand and put it on his clothed erect Penis?

Yes, moving her hand ‘gently’ is still forcing her to do something she didn’t want to do.

😂😂😂😂😂

What’s a little light forcing between friends?

It makes no difference who instigated the kissing, @Louloulouenna .

He was wrong, it was absolutely not ok to do that. I wouldn’t say it was assault and notify the police, but I certainly would tell all my mates to give him a swerve if I were the young woman concerned.

Well that's why I came on here, to gauge what people think. His penis wasn't erect - they were standing at the front of a night club.

Did he go into that much detail. That his penis wasn't erect?

Either way, erect or not, it is sexual assault to take a womans hand and put it on his penis.

I was just thinking back to when I was young and kissing boys outside clubs.

None of them ever put my hand on their penis.

It's not ok

Kissing is just kissing.

At least he learned a lesson

Doesn’t matter if it was erect or not. She didn’t want to touch it. He forced her too. It’s a bloody big jump from a kiss.

It comes across like you’re defending his behaviour - she instigated the kiss, he was gentle, his penis wasn’t erect. None of that matters. He intentionally took someone else’s hand and moved it to his crotch. Not okay. Never okay. Creepy, pervy, coercive, controlling. He’s in the wrong. He needs to realise that. Jumping to his defence won’t help him.

Has he apologised, sincerely, to the girl?

Unless he was sure that was what she wanted, I think it is. She probably assumed he took her hand just for the sake of holding it, and suddenly found it moved against her will into contact with his crotch. To be honest, I would have been tempted to follow up with a knee.

Apologies, I didn't mean to defend him - just stating the facts. He has sincerely apologised to her and agreed to have therapy. He has also asked her what else he can and should do.

For what it's worth I think it was absolutely a bad and wrong thing to do (obviously) but I don't believe it is classified as sexual assault. Happy to accept that others see it differently.