Childrens books - how much consideration are you giving to age groups and word counts etc?

[grumpypants]

Because much as I know the best thing is to write, there is also a lot of sane advice about researching and pitching accordingly. Trouble is, the length of a book for 7-9 is so much shorter than for 9 plus. There's also that conflict of subject matter and style. So, what are you doing?

The fact is, particularly with children's writing, that if you don't write a novel of a suitable length and suitable content and style, you won't get any publisher interested in your work.

They know what works and publish accordingly. If you take no notice of that, then you can't expect them to be interested.

You should know who you're writing for. You should have in your mind a child who reads specific other books. The word count and style and content are not random.

I think I'm finding it too easy to keep researching and debating what age I should edit for etc, and it's a way of avoiding the inevitable. But, I do think it's different to writing for adults or teenagers in terms of having to work within a set of rules.

Do you have or know a child who would enjoy the story you want to tell? If so, what age is that child? Are they mature for their age or not? What do they like about the books they read?

The thing is about adults, is that if you have a story in your mind that you know you would enjoy, then you can go ahead and write it, because you know there's at least one adult who would enjoy it! But with children, if someone wanted to write a picture book for 9-11 year olds then generally speaking they wouldn't know much about the books commonly read by that age group.

I don't think you have to research too much. Just look at some of the most popular books for each age group - look at the word count, the content and style and then compare the book you want to write with that.

Then write it!

Oh yes, I've written the story, sent it off, got some feedback, now have to rewrite. I'm dithering about the age group - was originally aimed at 8 year olds, but the does cut down the word count significantly.
Think I should be rewriting in terms of Horrid Henry/ Worst Witch length - another excuse to procrastinate reserach...

Oh OK, sorry, I didn't realise you'd written it.

What did the feedback say? Did they mention age groups then?

yes, it was very useful but I am finding myself too easily distracted by 'reserach' - i just wondered if other people found this?

Bump - need to talk about subject and word length and stuff!

I'm about 20,000 words into the first draft of a book aimed at the upper end of 9-12 age group - I'd be looking at the sort of child who reads Cornelia Funke, Zizou Corder etc - and I was thinking I could risk bringing it in around 50,000 words, although I know it's long for that age group. Certainly, my own children and their friends would be happy to read books that length and longer from 9 on.

same here - mine certainly would. I think the problem for me is the sudden change in word length and depth of subject from 7-9 to 9-12 iswim? The feedback I had was to rethink the age and either make it longer and darker, or lighter and shorter. (Was 20,000 at 9 - 12).

I don't think it matters that much - what i mean is - if you're aiming at an 8 year old and the guidelines change at 9.
tell them you're pitching it at 9yos.

seriously - at Ottakar's the age range was 5-8 and 8-12, whereas at Waterstone's it's 5-8 and 9-12.
In my shop, i bracket it 6 upwards, 8 upwards, 10 upwards.
If i get books that say 9+ on the back, i decide whether they're a challenging 8 upwards or an easier 10 upwards.

That's useful. It just seems like another layer of complication to use as a way of putting off get through before writing!

These things do matter.
Not in terms of readers as Nickelby says, and certainly my own DC, I am sure, would have no idea about word count etc.

But when you're starting off, it's not about the reader, unless your self publishing.

The person you are seeking to attract is an agent. And an agent will expect you to be a bit industry savvy.

An agent would expect you to know about word count and age grouping in general terms.

But fear not, a quick search on t'internet will tell you what you need to know about classifications.

You have to look at the legnth, the content and the language. You're better off looking at what's being published now and using that as your starting point, the publishers web sites are good for this. 20k is too short for a 9+ book (sorry).

it's tricky, isn't it?

but then, i think of a lot of books that have got through the publishers' criteria, and they're largely crap - the kids don't enjoy them and they don't get bought.

But LitChick's right - you've got to do what thay say to get published the first time.

Thanks all - (Belle, that was also the advice I had from Cornerstones) I think I have a dilemma in that I love my character and the situation , also managed to snare the interest of a cple people (no longterm outcome tho) I have to either write down for 7-9 at 5000 words, or up for 9+ to 25,000 plus. Finding it too easy to keep researching. Lit, I know you are right - it's pointless to assume I can just send anything in without fitting it into a box iyswim?

I was in Waterstones here today, there was an entire wall dedicated to vampire teenage novels. The assistant admitted that there was too much but people buy them...at the moment. Things change. It just takes something different to turn the trend around. Books are like fashion, they are fickle and what may sell this week may not the next. Some publishers like to print the same style of books, some want to try something new. It's really not easy.
You could try sending it to someone else.

I have thought of that - sent it to 13 agents, got two perosnal responses, then went to Cornerstones. TBH, some of the advice is conflicting, so maybe I should just go with my own liking for the story. Have you had good news yet?

I kind of have a publisher, it's the first one I've submitted to. She likes the plots for 2/3 manuscripts but has asked for rewrites as my writing wasn't strong enough. I've rewritten and sent the text for the picture book and am rewriting the novel. I'm waiting to hear if she likes the rewrite, if not she's offered to buy the rights.
Agents are an odd bunch, I possibly have a publisher and still can't get an agent to respond! I've emailed 3 this week and 1 before Christmas so it's still early days. I have submitted to some before with a different manuscript and have heard nothing from some of them.

I suggest you skip the agent and go for a publisher. If you manage to find a publisher then look for an agent. This does limit who you can submit to though as not all publishers will accept without an agent.

That's quite interesting - I'm ploughing my way thro the Artsist and Writers Children's one at the mo, for advice really on presentation. Weird that the agents haven't replied, but how exciting for you. Would you rather do the rewrite or would the rights be enough fulfilment for you? Sounds like your target age group is younger than mine?

The novel is for 9+, I'm rewriting this and have rewritten the picture book. I was experimenting to be honest to see which age group I found easier but she said she liked them both. I wouldn't sell the rights. A good plot can take ages (years) or I can think of 10 in a day. I'd rather give it a damn good try at writing it myself. The novel is at 25k so far but it's almost done. Another 3k should do it.

Eunice McMullen has turned me down twice (even though I may have a publisher the second time I subbed to her), saying she's completely rushed off her feet and taking on no new clients as her existing ones have been with her for 10 years. I'd be interested to see how you go if you ever sumbit to her.

ok, will let you know - am thinking i may try a rewrite for 7-9. Trouble is, it's a stand alone rather than a series link etc etc. Totally can see why you would want to do the rewrite. Let me know how you get on? I'm using this am to write a short story to get back into practise.

Belle, have you thought of doing a writing course? Something like the OU course would really help you with the technical side of things and save you huge amounts of time in trial and error.

Grumpypants - conflicting advice is fun isn't it? I think at some level you have to just go with your gut feeling - you need to believe in your story. If it feels right at 7-9 then do it. It is a point about the stand alone thing - 7-9 seems to be all about series' these days.

Yes, that's all the advice I get, but one publisher (JK Rowling's one) has said he'd like to see stand alones for that age group. The conflicting advice is quite hard, particularly when from equally reputable, knowledgeable types.

Have you done a course? I keep thinking about it Arvon particularly.

I've not done a course, I have a few willing victims who are more then happy to proof read though and I'm getting some help on the technical side from them as well.

Grumpy - I did the Advanced Creative Writing with the OU. I had been a professional writer for 15 years, albeit as a journalist, but I found it hugely valuable in many ways. Everybody else on my course had done the Level 2 Creative Writing course first, and raved about it. One of the revelations for me, was that because you had to complete modules and assignments on a variety of different forms of writing, it forced you to confront areas of development that you might instinctively shy away from. For instance, there was a poetry assignment - I hadn't written a poem since I was a teenager but I loved the challenge of shaping a sestina or a villanelle and making it work - and I found out I was actually quite good at it.
Also, the second assignment consisted of taking the short story you had written for your first assignment and adapting it into a film script - now I am not at all a visual writer, I don't watch much tv or many films so I really struggled with that one, but I also learned so much about point of view and setting up a scene that I think really improved the way I go about writing fiction.
The third big thing is learning to give and receive feedback in a very safe and supportive environment - critiquing other people's work is a great way of learning to improve your own.
I am a bit of a missionary about it - I've been trying to write fiction for years and I think in the nine months of the course I developed far more as a writer than in all those years of scribbling away alone. I did have an absolutely amazing tutor though which definitely helps!