Childrens books - how much consideration are you giving to age groups and word counts etc?

[grumpypants]

Because much as I know the best thing is to write, there is also a lot of sane advice about researching and pitching accordingly. Trouble is, the length of a book for 7-9 is so much shorter than for 9 plus. There's also that conflict of subject matter and style. So, what are you doing?

[grumpypants]

ok! think i have been counting pages in dcs books researching long enough! Final decision is (ta da)
6-9 years, young fiction, 1,000 to just over 10,000 words,
and general fiction (8 to 12), 25 to 50,000 words

Somebody just pat me on the head and be done with it

[grumpypants]

Good point Glen - the problem is that I wrote it at 19,000 for 9plus, and am now trying to digest the feedback I received. Because I had some interest, it's harder to decide what to do. The real issue for me is the big leap in category from 6k to 25k plus with no middle ground. Altho, all respect to your dd!

[LadyGlencoraPalliser]

Grumpy - my eight-year-old is immersed in Order of the Phoenix at the moment and that's well over 250,000 words! Write the book the length that feels natural for it. Although as an exercise I think writing it at both lengths could be interesting, I think that if you write it at the longer length you will be able to edit it down and tighten it up more easily, whereas writing it to the shorter length, if that is not the natural length for the story, the problem will be that it will read more like a plot summary, a bit flattened with less detail and interest than the longer version.
But that's just my reaction.

[belledechocchipcookie]

Best of luck. Publishing isn't the quickest of industries so I may be waiting for a while

[grumpypants]

just at work, so quick hi - am going to rewrite for both age groups, as an exercise. 8,000 words for 7-9, aiming for 30,000 for 9+ - let me know how you get along!

[belledechocchipcookie]

My 9+ novel is dark, plenty of action and I've been told parts of it are terrifying [blush. I need to go through it and edit the last half, then find a willing victim to have a read. I've not looked at the comp, been too busy doing the rewrite. I think it's OK, I'm not sure about my language though.

Lemony Snicket is packed out with pictures, as are the Mr Gump books. They do look like there's alot of words but there's pages with just a few words. I think Horrid Henry is more 7 then 7-9, the books are split into three stories and the language is not too complex.

[grumpypants]

Yeah, Lemony Snicket is a really good example, except word wise it's much longer. I think that because I feel 'almost there' I am having a really hard time settling for how to rewrite. Apparently Horrid Henry and Mr Majeika are also 7-9.
I do think the 9+ market starts straying into quite dark territory, and my subject matter would be too babyish; I know I have to toughen up the action and the fear factor either way - that was one point from Cornerstones.
I wish I could do a 15k standalone for 7-9 - that would be perfect!
How are you getting along - did you do the W&A 2011 competition?

[belledechocchipcookie]

7-9s still want something to scare the pants off them, think Lemony Snicket/Roald Dahl so either way it's probably going to be too gentle. The words are easier to change though so I'd probably leave it at this market and have a play with some of the words.

[grumpypants]

Another wittering (sorry!) - I think my dilemma is that the market that I am looking at would be around age 7 to 9 due to the subject, but this means writing a book of maximum 8,000 words*, and reducing the number of difficult words, making my style easier etc. However, if I go up to the 9 to 12 market, I need to increase word count and also darken my story (without making the character too adult in her thoughts and actions) - I love my character, and she has been complimented as well rounded and appealing, so I am torn between simplifying or darkening and possibly losing the innocence of the story. (Feedback was that altho' the reader liked the story, it was possibly too gentle).
*Everything I read suggests this age group has a limit of 4 to 8000 wds, with only one agent's blog suggesting up to 25,000

[grumpypants]

Yes, I mean the Rainbow stuff and the Animal Ark stuff seems to be the packaged series things that sell really well. What I think could work would be the character having a loner shelf life than just one book. Good tip tho - I am beginning to think this particular plot may be better suited to 7-9. Funny how mumsnet can be quite useful in the thinking process!

[atswimtwolengths]

I think it depends what you mean by series books. If you mean the Rainbow rubbish then yes, they sell, but they're not the only books that are available.

If you present an agent with a really well written book that is suitable for the age-group, then you could mention that you are working on another book involving the same characters. I think that's different from writing about all your plans, without an actual book to show them. (Not literally meaning you in that sentence!)

[grumpypants]

Thank you so much seth, belle, Lady and nickel - this is absolutely fascinating. My understanding is that stand alones for 7-9s don't work, but that they are suddenly great at 9 plus! I think my character would work really well in a Horrid Henry, Worst Witch way for 7-9, but I also read (Writers Year Book) that presenting an agent/publisher with an idea for a series was far too enthusiastic.
It's so interesting to hear from people who are doing more than just wanting to write a book. I chat to lots of people who want to, but have not seriously drafted anything.
Plus side, I wrote 1200 wds today as practise.

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

[LadyGlencoraPalliser]

Worry not, Seth. All mine have passed throught the Rainbow Fairy addiction and the older two now read an incredible range of books - the 13 year old is even now reading All Quiet on the Western Front if that cheers you up any.

[nickelbabysnatcher]

the fairy stories are boring to adults for the same reason tehy appeal to children - they have a formula and each book is the same!
It means that children gaining reading confidence (even upto 8 or 9) have something to read that they know they will be able to read and understand.

she'll grow out of it when she's confident that she'll be able to read and understand something new, and then she'l read anything!

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

conservative is indeed the word LadyGlencora. You can suggest all sorts of wonderful stuff to me and I will get it and read it and enjoy it but dd will turn up her nose at it and demand more Rainbow Fairies. She has no taste. (Where did I go wrong? )

[nickelbabysnatcher]

oh, yes, Mr Gum is great!

[belledechocchipcookie]

I can write them, it's getting them published when the market's flooded that's the problem. I send my ideas to the publisher, she says yes or no. I'm waiting for her to get back to me on a picture book text rewrite and I have a 9+ novel I'm rewriting at the moment. I've no idea if my writing is strong enough, my willing reader victim loves it though.

Do book shops ask the publishers if they have a certain type of book rather then the publisher approach you IYKWIM? I expect if you show there's a demand by asking then the publishers are more likely to accept the manuscripts.

[nickelbabysnatcher]

all series, but:

Naughty Fairies by "Lucy Mayflower" - a school for naughty fairies...
Nina Fairy Ballerina by Anna Wilson - i have read the first one for review, and thought it well written and quite good fun
The Pet Sitter by Julie Sykes - Max sets up a pet-sitting busienss and finds himself looking after very unusual pets.

[LadyGlencoraPalliser]

Linda Chapman's Magic by Moonlight series is not bad.

[LadyGlencoraPalliser]

My eight-year-old daughter still loves Mr Gum. If you are reading aloud, they are far, far more amusing to read than Rainbow Fairies for instance. Not that she lets me read aloud to her much any more.
I think one of the reasons series are more popular in the younger age group is that children of this age tend to be very conservative in their reading tastes. I often have to work quite hard to persuade my eight-year-old to try something new, even when I know she will LOVE it, whereas the older two are happy to give a new author a go if the blurb sounds interesting.

[nickelbabysnatcher]

(going off ona little tangent, sorry!)

what about the Worst Witch?
and Winnie the witch for readers?

not fairies, i know, but let me just browse the shelves....

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

because dd would want to read them, I mean.

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

I wish you would Belle, I would kill for well-written books with fairies in them. Fairy books with some personality and sense of fun in them!

[belledechocchipcookie]

I've not read the Rainbow Fairies. I was going to write some fairy stories but have decided not to having seen the amount of books in this series. I'm not a fan or Mr Gum though.