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Craicnet

Irish posters - "having a paddy"

717 replies

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 14:39

Irish posters - can I canvas your opinions on the use of "having a paddy" to mean "having a tantrum"? I've been having a bit of back and forth (well, plenty of forth not much back in truth) with MNHQ over the past day or two and I want to check that I'm not going against the majority view here.

IMO, the phrase is awful, and plainly anti Irish. I know most people using it aren't doing so to slag Irish people off, but the phrase is still awful IMO.

I've been here a long time, and reported the phrase more than I can remember. Usually, it's just deleted right away. Raising it on a thread always derails it as people just go on the offensive.

I reported it yesterday and got the immediate email that it was being checked out, but the post stayed up for hours despite a follow up email, another post and a thread in Site Stuff. It was then edited rather than deleted, which I thought was the norm for offensive language. I reported another use this morning and it's still up.

What are your views? Is this a fight worth having with MNHQ or am I out of step with the majority of Irish posters on here?

Thanks :)

OP posts:
Piglet89 · 02/12/2024 16:14

@Lallydallydune your whole argument's based on a logical fallacy. We're talking about anti Irish sentiment among the English: whether it works both ways and the Irish are anti English does not make anti Irish sentiment any more acceptable.

FWIW the English are unpopular among other nations - not just Ireland (in part at least) because they're seen as simultaneously arrogant and also sneaky and underhand. The culture in England and the inability to say what they mean supports that, I'm afraid. I've been trying to find my "what the British [read English] mean" table but I can't seem to attach it.

Piglet89 · 02/12/2024 16:15

And don't get me started on the passive aggression.

JaneJeffer · 02/12/2024 16:16

The vast majority of English and Irish people treat each other with respect, have no ill intentions towards each other and can even get along famously. Sometimes they even marry each other Shock

Thanks @mamajong for your lovely post

Embroideredpetals · 02/12/2024 16:17

Irish people aren’t great at saying what they mean either @Piglet89 😁
According to my Australian friend we speak in code!

Piglet89 · 02/12/2024 16:18

@Embroideredpetals Irish? Or Northern Irish?

I'm the latter and "brash Nordies" are pretty straightforward.

Embroideredpetals · 02/12/2024 16:20

ROI@Piglet89

Piglet89 · 02/12/2024 16:21

Yeah no: on the whole, Northern Irish people say what they mean.

I'm married to a Scot and he's broadly similar. It does mean our rows are absolutely incendiary.

Embroideredpetals · 02/12/2024 16:22

Though I think it’s just cultural differences really. He doesn’t get the subtext 😅

BarbaraHoward · 02/12/2024 16:22

PPop · 02/12/2024 16:04

I am certainly genuine. I haven't really used mumsnet for a while but used it when conceiving my 15 month old. I tried to read as much of the thread, but I was dealing with a screaming little one so rang my family for their views and none shared them so I admit to getting distracted reading.

I then felt completely excluded as I am not Irish enough for this post. I won't be commenting anymore and I think I'll probably stop using mumsnet again, I stupidly gave my 2 cents not realising I had to declare parentage, I did declare my dads name to be the word so many get offended by as it is strange to me that my dads name is viewed badly. Sadly I have always known my Irish heritage to be so inclusive and didn't find that here.

So I am taking my exhausted self away and I certainly won't be back on craicnet as it's not as inclusive as the Irish I know and love.

Thank you to all who commented positively on my behalf.

No one views your dad's name badly, clearly.

I hope you don't feel the need to leave MN over this one thread, but MN isn't for everyone, that's for sure.

Hopefully you've seen now that this thread is about a change in moderation policy about an anti-Irish slur, and that that will be an emotive subject.

Most Craicnet threads are, well, good craic, but this one is different and I won't apologise for taking this one seriously nor for being completely unwilling to discuss the term. Perhaps this conversation can serve as a reminder to MNHQ that not much good comes from having this discussion on the boards.

Hope your little one feels better soon, nothing worse than a screaming baby.

OP posts:
eggandonion · 02/12/2024 16:24

East Belfast mil... 'Joe is thinking of getting married and Susan is knitting ' translates as Susan is pregnant.
I need to sit down translates as mil has constipation.
Etc.

CwmYoy · 02/12/2024 16:30

@mathanxiety

"Paddy" is always a sneering reference to Irish people.
Do you get it now?

No, because there are Irish people on this thread saying the opposite. They don't agree with you.

Do you understand that? Or are you telling Irish people what to think?

AnnaFrith · 02/12/2024 16:37

I've never heard before of this expression being derived from stereotypes about Irish people.
I don't use it myself, but I remember in my childhood (50 years ago) my mother (half Irish) would say 'in a paddy', meaning a sulk, rather than a tantrum.

Embroideredpetals · 02/12/2024 16:38

CwmYoy · 02/12/2024 16:30

@mathanxiety

"Paddy" is always a sneering reference to Irish people.
Do you get it now?

No, because there are Irish people on this thread saying the opposite. They don't agree with you.

Do you understand that? Or are you telling Irish people what to think?

Not many are disagreeing @CwmYoy.
Not sure how you’d know a poster’s nationality or heritage either, unless they say? Sometimes these things come up on active threads and people don’t even notice the category they’re posting in.

Abhannmor · 02/12/2024 16:50

@mamajong 💐

Abhannmor · 02/12/2024 16:54

BarbaraHoward · 02/12/2024 16:02

Yup. Even our governments get along ok now despite Brexit.

It helps that people like Gove - 'the Good Friday Agreement is treason '- and Johnson - ' Varadkar , why isn't he called Murphy? ' have shuffled off the stage. Good riddance.

CwmYoy · 02/12/2024 17:17

@Embroideredpetals

Not sure how you’d know a poster’s nationality or heritage either, unless they say? Sometimes these things come up on active threads and people don’t even notice the category they’re posting in.

Obviously they said so. I'm not psychic.

Runssometimes · 02/12/2024 17:41

@BarbaraHoward so, MNHQ came back to me again and have said that if a poster when told that the phrase is offensive then continues to use it, that would be considered inflammatory and against talk guidelines so we are encouraged to report that,

they still take the stance that it’s better than banning it.

so there we have it. I’m personally not that happy with it, and do see it as higher tolerance than other slurs, but it seems that’s the stance being taken.

BarbaraHoward · 02/12/2024 17:42

The two emails I've had from MNHQ today for anyone interested, reposted with permission:

First:

Hello, BarbaraHoward,

Thank you for your continued engagement with us on this issue and your patience while we discussed it further. We understand how frustrating it can be when a situation feels unresolved or unclear, especially when it concerns language that has been the subject of past discussions.

We want to reassure you that there has been no change in our moderation policy. Our approach has always been to review language in context, weighing intent and potential harm. While we’ve removed the term “throwing a paddy” in the past after reviewing it in context, we don’t have a blanket rule that automatically removes terms based on their historical origins alone. Instead, we try to approach each case with an open mind, ensuring that the intent behind the language is considered. As we mentioned before, many people using this phrase likely do so without understanding its background, and we see this as an opportunity to educate, rather than simply moderate by deletion.

We recognise that this is a difficult and sensitive issue, especially for Irish users who might be particularly impacted by the term, but we believe that providing a chance for users to engage with the topic and explain why certain phrases can be harmful is often more productive than enforcing a strict "delete and move on" policy.

We understand your concern about having to explain this to others and the emotional toll it takes. Please know that we do not take this lightly, and we genuinely appreciate the input of users like you who have helped us navigate these difficult conversations in the past. We do want the boards to be a place where people can discuss sensitive topics with respect, and we are grateful for your contributions to that goal.

In response to your question about other terms, we do not have a blanket policy of removing specific slurs or words. Each case is assessed individually, based on the context in which they are used and the potential for harm. We understand that this can sometimes be frustrating.

We hope this clarifies where we’re coming from and why we continue to take this nuanced approach to moderation. We are committed to ensuring that Mumsnet remains a respectful and welcoming space for everyone, and your feedback is vital in helping us improve that process.

Best wishes,
Becky
MNHQ

Second:

Hello again,

You're welcome to post on the boards.

As we said previously, we take everything in context. If posters took the time to explain why they didn't like the term and it continued and then threatened to derail a thread, then we may step in and delete or edit where necessary. We look at everything on a case-by-case basis.

We obviously would prefer if posters used a different term if one causes upset, but rightly or wrongly, it is a commonly used term and we have always avoided having proscribed speech on Mumsnet. Banning certain phrases outright risks shutting down discussions entirely, as it can create an environment where people are reluctant to engage for fear of saying something unintentionally wrong - and in our many years of doing this, we recognise that it doesn't actually help matters as people continue to use the words unwittingly.

Best wishes,
Becky
MNHQ

I still don't feel like we've had any acknowledgement that the policy has changed but we clearly won't be getting one. I guess all we can do is challenge on the boards when we find it. I've rarely had a positive experience with that, but who knows.

Thanks to all who've posted.

OP posts:
BarbaraHoward · 02/12/2024 17:43

Runssometimes · 02/12/2024 17:41

@BarbaraHoward so, MNHQ came back to me again and have said that if a poster when told that the phrase is offensive then continues to use it, that would be considered inflammatory and against talk guidelines so we are encouraged to report that,

they still take the stance that it’s better than banning it.

so there we have it. I’m personally not that happy with it, and do see it as higher tolerance than other slurs, but it seems that’s the stance being taken.

Cross posted with you there, we got the same emails.

OP posts:
WaveyGodshawk · 02/12/2024 17:47

BarbaraHoward · 02/12/2024 17:42

The two emails I've had from MNHQ today for anyone interested, reposted with permission:

First:

Hello, BarbaraHoward,

Thank you for your continued engagement with us on this issue and your patience while we discussed it further. We understand how frustrating it can be when a situation feels unresolved or unclear, especially when it concerns language that has been the subject of past discussions.

We want to reassure you that there has been no change in our moderation policy. Our approach has always been to review language in context, weighing intent and potential harm. While we’ve removed the term “throwing a paddy” in the past after reviewing it in context, we don’t have a blanket rule that automatically removes terms based on their historical origins alone. Instead, we try to approach each case with an open mind, ensuring that the intent behind the language is considered. As we mentioned before, many people using this phrase likely do so without understanding its background, and we see this as an opportunity to educate, rather than simply moderate by deletion.

We recognise that this is a difficult and sensitive issue, especially for Irish users who might be particularly impacted by the term, but we believe that providing a chance for users to engage with the topic and explain why certain phrases can be harmful is often more productive than enforcing a strict "delete and move on" policy.

We understand your concern about having to explain this to others and the emotional toll it takes. Please know that we do not take this lightly, and we genuinely appreciate the input of users like you who have helped us navigate these difficult conversations in the past. We do want the boards to be a place where people can discuss sensitive topics with respect, and we are grateful for your contributions to that goal.

In response to your question about other terms, we do not have a blanket policy of removing specific slurs or words. Each case is assessed individually, based on the context in which they are used and the potential for harm. We understand that this can sometimes be frustrating.

We hope this clarifies where we’re coming from and why we continue to take this nuanced approach to moderation. We are committed to ensuring that Mumsnet remains a respectful and welcoming space for everyone, and your feedback is vital in helping us improve that process.

Best wishes,
Becky
MNHQ

Second:

Hello again,

You're welcome to post on the boards.

As we said previously, we take everything in context. If posters took the time to explain why they didn't like the term and it continued and then threatened to derail a thread, then we may step in and delete or edit where necessary. We look at everything on a case-by-case basis.

We obviously would prefer if posters used a different term if one causes upset, but rightly or wrongly, it is a commonly used term and we have always avoided having proscribed speech on Mumsnet. Banning certain phrases outright risks shutting down discussions entirely, as it can create an environment where people are reluctant to engage for fear of saying something unintentionally wrong - and in our many years of doing this, we recognise that it doesn't actually help matters as people continue to use the words unwittingly.

Best wishes,
Becky
MNHQ

I still don't feel like we've had any acknowledgement that the policy has changed but we clearly won't be getting one. I guess all we can do is challenge on the boards when we find it. I've rarely had a positive experience with that, but who knows.

Thanks to all who've posted.

Funny that. I'm sure I've seen certain phrases banned outright on the feminism board 🤔 instant deletion, sometimes of a whole thread!
Funny that alright.

notacooldad · 02/12/2024 17:50

Blimey Ive not heard that word in over 30 years! I didn't realise people still said it!

Embroideredpetals · 02/12/2024 17:54

@CwmYoy Well, generally people said things like their Irish mother/dad/grandmother used it or seemed ok with it (so presumably in UK). Not too many people said I’m living in Ireland and I think it’s fine. There does seem to be a difference in usage between Ireland and the UK and it’s not hard to see why that is.

Anyway, hope you now realise how antagonistic a term it is for many Irish people.

JaneJeffer · 02/12/2024 18:34

If posters took the time to explain why they didn't like the term and it continued and then threatened to derail a thread, then we may step in and delete or edit where necessary
Guess who'll be getting deleted though

mathanxiety · 02/12/2024 18:48

WaveyGodshawk · 02/12/2024 17:47

Funny that. I'm sure I've seen certain phrases banned outright on the feminism board 🤔 instant deletion, sometimes of a whole thread!
Funny that alright.

Absolutely.

Those emails were full of balloon juice.

Lallydallydune · 02/12/2024 19:30

DeanElderberry · 02/12/2024 16:08

Well known that England and Ireland don't like each other makes it sound like a random east vs west of the Pennines thing.

Not like the feelings of the inhabitants of the country where England started its 800 years+ colonial project, with the invasion, theft of land, suppression and destruction of culture, asset-stripping, dehumanising of the inhabitants and outright genocide, towards the system that perpetrated that, and towards the remaining vestiges of the techniques used.

There are other bits of the former empire who keep a close eye on presumptious attitudes from the Imperial state.

Edited

The current English people didn't do any of that though did they?

So why would anyone hate the current English people for it?

How is an innocent English child responsible for anything that some rich people did in England's history.

Blind hatred doesn't make sense...