Anna Kreigel murder case

[Betaboo]

I guess we can't discuss the trial, but the details coming out from the evidence is sickening, the poor child's death was horrific ! Her poor parents knowing how their daughters final hours were full of such suffering and terror.

I have enormous sympathy for the parents of the boys. I can't imagine how awful this has been for them.
I just heard on the news that the family of Boy B have gone into hiding after his identity was made public.
That doesn't take away from the enormous sympathy I have for Ana's parents.

There are no winners here at all. It's horrible for everyone involved.
The boys will go to Oberstown because there isn't anywhere else for them to go. Legally and socially they are children. They can't go to an adult male prison. No one expects children to commit such horrific crimes so there are no prisons for them.
I don't envy those who have to make the sentencing decision.

I would have very little sympathy for the parents of boy A. They knew what the child had done, the evidence was overwhelming, and yet they did not plead guilty ... and doubtless that trial contributes even more to the unimaginable grief of the Krigel family. They had a chance to do something right, and they did not.

The reports of the response of the father of boy B to the verdict was ... hmnnn ....

I would have very little sympathy for the parents of boy A. They knew what the child had done, the evidence was overwhelming, and yet they did not plead guilty ... and doubtless that trial contributes even more to the unimaginable grief of the Krigel family. They had a chance to do something right, and they did not.

I couldn't understand why there was no guilty plea when the evidence seemed to be overwhelming. The explanation I've seen is that there is always a chance of a case like this being overturned on a technicality so it is "worth" pleading not-guilty and hoping for the best. I cannot imagine what it was like for her parents sitting through that case.

I can't stop thinking about this case, poor Ana, her story broke my heart. Prime Time are discussing it tonight. It's heartbreaking and terrifying at the same time. The idea that two 13 year olds could do this is scary as hell.

It does not give me great hope when I read the comments of Leo Varadkar in the Dail where he sympathised with Ana's parents and the parents of the murderers in the same sentence.

Me neither.

The parents of those boys should be taking a long hard look at themselves, and the home life and the example of how to be a boy and a man that they encouraged and provided should be examined very closely. I am sure there are many lessons to be learned in how not to bring up a boy.

12,000 pornographic images. WTF???
What sort of home life and environment do you provide for a child who thinks even one is ok? What kind of example did the fathers of these boys offer to them?

I am all for parents being held partially responsible for the actions of their children under 18. The boys' parents are not victims here. They brought up two boys who are basically, from what I can see here in my armchair, psychopaths.

The boys were asked initially in their interviews if they could distinguish right from wrong and gave answers that were coherent from a verbal point of view. But their actions and their behaviour and leanings demonstrated very clearly that they did not know what right and wrong meant at all when it came down to decisions on a day to day basis.

Maybe a bit of poking might reveal that they felt considerations of right and wrong are suspended or not applicable when it comes to treatment of girls and women? That would not be surprising.

I foresee a lot more gruesome rape/murder crimes in Ireland because of the general culture of objectification of women and girls and the acceptance of rape culture, lazy parenting, and refusal to confront porn. This is the tip of the iceberg.

You are right math. Distinguishing between the good and bad treatment of people is one question. But what if the people are girls/women who are standing in the way of their sexual gratification. Do they blame the girl for just being a girl? Yes.

Yes while this is the only detention centre they can be placed they don't have to make it like a holiday camp. They still have access to all the nice things, probably more. They're not going to reflect and feel guilt for the horrendous things they did to that poor girl while watching their favourite programme on TV till 2am or playing video games on a console.

I genuinely don't know what can be done about porn on the internet. It's a real problem. You see on here people (women i presume) who seem to think men watching it constantly is isn't a issue. Not sure if that's ignorance of what out there or not. You don't have to to on the dark web to see it either.

I've encountered in the last 3 years two (different) 4th class boys who are watching hardcore porn. Lots of It. Both seemed to favour anal.

One would certainly be described as from a 'nice hard working family'

What did the dad do after the verdict was given?

@Falafel19 Boy B's dad shouted "bunch of scumbags" at the jury.

RedForShort
Would it be a safeguarding issue?
What are they being exposed to at home that they would even be aware of hard core porn?

@RedForShort that is so horrifying. I am all for campaigning to stop kids accessing porn - I'm posting about the same on the feminism board where there is a discussion on banning porn access for kids (I personally think all porn should be banned and cannot believe I live in a world where I am now seen as being as regressive as Mary Whitehouse or Alice Glen (tells my age!!!).

I cannot believe that when Leo Varadkar mentioned looking into limiting kid access to porn, some people were on saying oh but we need to make sure we don't return to censorship - honestly, I despair sometimes at the lack of intellectual faculties that conflate banning hard core porn with banning Lady Chatterly's Lover.

At the risk of outing myself because I have been talking about this with friends........ internet restrictions have got to become more sophisticated, or accessible.

I've no reason at all to think that my 13 year old is looking at porn, he's obsessed with fortnite and watches riddles and science clips and big bang.............. however when I did spend about two hours figuring out how to set ''rules'' so that my daughter and I could access the internet but his time on the internet was restricted, it took him about 36 hours to figure out (or google) that all he needed to do was stick a pin in the modem and all the settings defaulted back to their original settings.

I'm a single parent and I leave the house at 7 am and I"m not back til 18.00hrs so God knows what he's doing tbh.

I tried to talk to him about doing the right thing if he saw a girl being hurt.

I cannot feel even the tiniest bit of sympathy for the parents of the murderers. I just can't.

I have no idea how I would feel, in their shoes.

But they have to have known the truth. And yet they chose to play charades with the gardai and put Ana's parents through the hell that was that court case.

I hope that the sentence reflects the horrendous crime. That is all.

I agree with you LoeweMulberry. It's all very well people saying parents should monitor what their children are looking at. I do suspect those that say this don't have children or older children.

Or if they do they feel that they are monitoring everything. Fact is the younger generation are streets ahead with technology compared to the majority of parents.

I'm sorry to say that more than likely primary aged children will have seen porn. Not necessarily sought it out, but will have been exposed.

The only way to guarantee they see nothing is no allowing any devices with internet access. Which is not realistic long term, the internet is now a way of life and not going away. Children need to be taught how to cope with the internet.

Today's parents have it tough. This is totally new, not something any generation of parent has had to deal with before.They don't know themselves and are learning too. So how do they manage to teach or handle their own children?

(mathanxiety, yes the 4th class boys were safeguarding issue. Couldn't not be.)

(Saying that 12,000 images on a phone is something detectable.)

Saying that 12,000 images on a phone is something detectable.

Not necessarily. They may not be sitting there in a photos app!

There are loads of apps specifically for hiding dodgy photos - they tend to look like something innocuous such as a simple game or calculator app, but have a hidden passworded folder inside for storing pictures. Unless parents are tech savvy enough to examine the file storage occupied by each app and spot when some app looks unusually huge, those 12000 photos could stay hidden.

Better to block all app downloads without parental permission so it can't happen in the first place... but then that's not going to work either if a kid has a second phone hidden somewhere.

I think I read that Boy A had two phones, do I presumed the worst of the content was on the second, probably secret phone. I think I'll be keeping my preteens too broke to be able to afford a first, let alone second, phone.

Well there you go MarDhea, how are parents supposed to keep up with all this technology. (The actual teenager's behaviour being a separate thing.)

Please don't tell me those boys didn't know right from wrong.
If they learned nothing in their homes they would have had SPHE classes from Junior Infants. If they were in a Catholic national school they would have learned about "treating others as you would like to be treated" - I'm sure other denominational and non denominational primary schools do the same - my children went to Catholic primaries so I can only speak for what they experienced.

I think we ( society ) are all trying to find reasons/blame, it is all so unbelievably sad and lacking reason or motivation . As a teacher I keep thinking of kids that age I teach. I can't begin to imagine how the school is going to/has dealt with it. Do these horrific cases change thing, laws, policies, are they one off monstrous abborations or indicative of current times? All the calls for schools to deal with bullying, monitoring children's phones etc are in place for responsible parents and schools. Wanting to know the perpetrators background is normal, I think, hoping there's some answers there, it's how we try to rationalize it. Those murderers having being in the educational system will have had all the right messages. What they did is so horrific it's beyond our rational understanding. Personally I think Boy A comes across as a complete wired wrong pyscopath and Bit B as a follower, a stupid wrong doing fucker but went along. The mob mentality of eating to know who they are, is I think, a need to understand. What Ana went through is unbearable to even think about. Unbearable, her parents must be in a living hell.

The 'knowing right from wrong' thing is much more complex than just a simple binary question. Yes, my 5yo knows it's wrong to hurt someone else, but even a 13yo brain is light years away from being fully developed in terms of impulse control, forseeing consequences of actions, etc. I'm not saying this to excuse anything - I agree that Boy A at least sounds like a psychopath, and I hope he serves a very long sentence - but asking "Did they know right from wrong?" is the wrong question.

Yes I agree of course they knew it was wrong, so does every adult rapist/ murderer.Teenagers have a higher ability of magical thinking and fantasy, how could their parents stand by in court. Imagine that lifetime curse knowing your child did that. I've taught some really really fucked up kids from horrifically deprived backgrounds whose parents wouldn't even have the social ability to stand by. There is going to be a tree planting ceremony next Saturday and Ana's parents have asked people to attend.

@CharityDingle

"I cannot feel even the tiniest bit of sympathy for the parents of the murderers. I just can't. "

Thank god then it's not you involved in any part of this dreadful situation.