Anna Kreigel murder case

[Betaboo]

I guess we can't discuss the trial, but the details coming out from the evidence is sickening, the poor child's death was horrific ! Her poor parents knowing how their daughters final hours were full of such suffering and terror.

[Betaboo]

Just horrible it has been postponed, Anna's murder is being more and more minimised daily.

How the hell could they not have psychiatric reports done in the 6 weeks since the judge requested it ? maybe the murderers or their families are not cooperating.

There will be a huge outcry in the Ireland if these boys get a lenient sentence.

[Blankrightnow]

Welcome to the Irish system. These sentencing delays are fairly typical. In reality this delay was well known by several parties for a long time. It's awful for the Kriegel family again, being prepared to give the statement today ... and then to have to wait several months. I ASSUME they had been preped for this VERY likely outcome for a while, but one never knows.

I am pleased that the family have also postponed their vi statement (knowing that it only adds to their distress)

[Annasgirl]

Just read that sentencing, which was supposed to happen to-day, has been adjourned until October 29th, to allow for psychiatric reports on the boys. I'm really angry here - they have been in custody since May, they committed the crimes a year ago and yet, no one can come up with 2 psychiatrists to conduct a report on them. I'm training in this area, and there are plenty of people able to do this, seems like an oversight or admin cock up that no one was booked to do this. I mean, anyone in the criminal justice system watching the trial should have prepared for this eventuality - even if they had been found innocent, a prudent manager would have prepared for worst case scenario. The poor Kriegel family were in court again to-day and have decided to wait until the October date to read their victim impact statement as they want it to be heard at the same time as sentencing - I think those poor parents, like the rest of us, fear that the PC brigade will get their way on this and those boys will be down for "rehabilitation" as opposed to punishment.

[Bythebanksof]

This is related to the original post. The Irish legal system gets a lot of justified criticism for how it handles children convicted our offenses, and sex crime.

This case is one we've got right
www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/soccer-star-deported-from-ireland-joins-vietnamese-outfit-on-lucrative-deal-38261275.html

As I know from the court systems, typically people charged with sex crimes are suspects in a number of other cases too. It is almost never a once of offense. And again, from the courts you can see they typically re-offend.

Of course this person will likely re-offend, but not in Ireland.

[CharityDingle]

I was shocked tbh that a 13 year old boy would use a word like slut or slutty.
All the more horrifying that he used such a word to denigrate a child whom he knew was dead having witnessed her murder.

RIP Ana, a beautiful innocent child.

[MotherForkinShirtBalls]

Thanks Bean. My dad dug through his recycling bin for me, so I'll get it from him

[mathanxiety]

I was thinking about exact that word, RedForShort - 'slutty'.

It looks more and more to me that Boy B has a father who is an utter dick, and a mother who has enabled him.

The 'innocent boy' narrative (a phrase the father used) is all about men being trapped by women and girls who set them up and then tell lies. It crops up all the time in rape denial, and it's a major element in rape culture.

[3timeslucky]

I'm currently reading Pornland: How Porn has Hijacked our Sexuality and the process of dehumanising women that is documented is truly terrifying (as is the content of what now passes for porn; as are the comments made on line by men who watch this shit). There seems to be no question but that repeated exposure to this stuff affects the wiring of men's brains - both in impacts on sexual response, on sexual expectations and in dehumanising of women, particularly women they think of "porn women" or slutty women.

I know of parents who in acknowledging defeat in the face of their children's superior tech knowledge physically remove wifi boxes and/or cables when they're at work in an attempt to keep their kids off the internet - not just to protect them from porn but to get them to do their homework. Parenting is hard these days (of course it always has been but technology is not helping).

[LoeweMulberry]

So true, my DD (aged 16) is much bigger up top than I am and even though I wear those bra-lettes she was measured last Saturday (which she hates). The woman in the bra shop picked out a few bras and was about to send one in in a bright red one, and the thought that popped through my head was that some rapist's barrister would hold that against a rape victim, so I said NO! not that one! It's not that I was like ooh how brazen, a red bra. Far from it.

[beanaseireann]

I have SBP. If you pm me I can post the article to you. I can't do links sorry.
It's not a long article just stating the obvious.

I see the Tinder Rapist Patrick Nevin got 12 years. He attacked three women in the space of 11 days. His sentences for the different crimes run concurrently not consecutively . Jesus wept.
He had previously attacked his partner and killed her two dogs.
Our sentences are too soft. I am sick of the "soft on crime" judges. There is no real disincentive.
When and why did Ireland become so lenient in regard to crime ? It's s policy that is just not working

[MotherForkinShirtBalls]

Don't suppose anyone subscribes to the Sunday Business Post? I'm somehow on their daily briefing email which says they have a piece from Cathal MacCoille on misogyny and how dangerous life can be for women of all ages. I don't want to spend €20 for one article and I have no idea where to get yesterday's paper.

[RedForShort]

I think we, sadly, know don't we mathanxiety. Seen it too many times how unless the girl or woman raped is dressed for 1930s Sunday school and has never spoken or looked at a boy she will have, in a sliding scale, someway caused her rape. The sexual assault and attempted rape of Ana isn't the big part of media reporting.

You know if you think about Boy B. He spoke about how she dressed 'slutty' and that you could see her hips and breasts (under her clothes!). You could interpret that he said that as an acceptable reason for her being sexual assaulted, torture and murder.

Being 'slutty', something that anyone who's read court reports were men have assault women might very well think is an acceptable reason for the assault.

[mathanxiety]

I have been pondering what might have happened if Ana had somehow managed to escape after being raped.

What sort of reception would she have got in the courts if a rape case against Boy A and aiding and abetting against Boy B had even gone to trial?

What sort of questions would she have been asked?

Thinking back to the Ulster rugby players' rape case, and the case where wearing a thong apparently meant consent - I wonder what sort of conversations go on in homes around Ireland when these cases are reported in the news. I suspect a great deal of misogyny is perfectly acceptable around the kitchen table.

Children absorb their view of right and wrong from their homes. They absorb their ideas about girls and women and sex and consent too. Schools can only do so much to counteract the influence of toxic masculinity at home.

[LoeweMulberry]

Yes they devalued her because she spoke slowly and 'weirdly' because she was hard of hearing. They completely othered her.

I just read that BOy A had said to Boy B 'how about killing somebody' and boy B asked ''who'' and was told ''Ana Kriegel. BOy B's father has a strange view of ''innocent boy''

[RedForShort]

I
For them i dont think it's really about knowing right from wrong. It is how they view others worth. Ana ment nothing to them did she; they are without empathy.

[beanaseireann]

buttons101
I absolutely agree with you.
They'll be out sooner than we'd hope to live their lives and possibly have relationships with people who don't know their history.
Unfortunately Anna's parents and her brother will serve the life sentence
I have no sympathy for those boys. They know right from wrong.

[buttons101]

My heart breaks for Ana and her family. I can't begin to imagine the devastation.

With regard to the media coverage, Boy B is being painted as martyr in some ways but he played his part in luring that poor girl to Boy A.

Ireland is not a big country. People talk, and most certainly in small communities. It's a tragic case, I just hope that both boys serve their time, but I'm not optimistic.

Realistically, these two boys won't be named and once they've served their time, they're essentially starting with a blank slate.. I find it horrifying that they could date a family member, friend or loved one in years to come, and everyone would be be none the wiser that they were responsible for the death of a young girl. It's vile.

[catinboots99]

@CharityDingle

"I cannot feel even the tiniest bit of sympathy for the parents of the murderers. I just can't. "

Thank god then it's not you involved in any part of this dreadful situation.

[Bumper1969]

Yes I agree of course they knew it was wrong, so does every adult rapist/ murderer.Teenagers have a higher ability of magical thinking and fantasy, how could their parents stand by in court. Imagine that lifetime curse knowing your child did that. I've taught some really really fucked up kids from horrifically deprived backgrounds whose parents wouldn't even have the social ability to stand by. There is going to be a tree planting ceremony next Saturday and Ana's parents have asked people to attend.

[AppropriateAdult]

The 'knowing right from wrong' thing is much more complex than just a simple binary question. Yes, my 5yo knows it's wrong to hurt someone else, but even a 13yo brain is light years away from being fully developed in terms of impulse control, forseeing consequences of actions, etc. I'm not saying this to excuse anything - I agree that Boy A at least sounds like a psychopath, and I hope he serves a very long sentence - but asking "Did they know right from wrong?" is the wrong question.

[Bumper1969]

I think we ( society ) are all trying to find reasons/blame, it is all so unbelievably sad and lacking reason or motivation . As a teacher I keep thinking of kids that age I teach. I can't begin to imagine how the school is going to/has dealt with it. Do these horrific cases change thing, laws, policies, are they one off monstrous abborations or indicative of current times? All the calls for schools to deal with bullying, monitoring children's phones etc are in place for responsible parents and schools. Wanting to know the perpetrators background is normal, I think, hoping there's some answers there, it's how we try to rationalize it. Those murderers having being in the educational system will have had all the right messages. What they did is so horrific it's beyond our rational understanding. Personally I think Boy A comes across as a complete wired wrong pyscopath and Bit B as a follower, a stupid wrong doing fucker but went along. The mob mentality of eating to know who they are, is I think, a need to understand. What Ana went through is unbearable to even think about. Unbearable, her parents must be in a living hell.

[beanaseireann]

Please don't tell me those boys didn't know right from wrong.
If they learned nothing in their homes they would have had SPHE classes from Junior Infants. If they were in a Catholic national school they would have learned about "treating others as you would like to be treated" - I'm sure other denominational and non denominational primary schools do the same - my children went to Catholic primaries so I can only speak for what they experienced.

[RedForShort]

Well there you go MarDhea, how are parents supposed to keep up with all this technology. (The actual teenager's behaviour being a separate thing.)

[MotherForkinShirtBalls]

I think I read that Boy A had two phones, do I presumed the worst of the content was on the second, probably secret phone. I think I'll be keeping my preteens too broke to be able to afford a first, let alone second, phone.

[MarDhea]

Saying that 12,000 images on a phone is something detectable.

Not necessarily. They may not be sitting there in a photos app!

There are loads of apps specifically for hiding dodgy photos - they tend to look like something innocuous such as a simple game or calculator app, but have a hidden passworded folder inside for storing pictures. Unless parents are tech savvy enough to examine the file storage occupied by each app and spot when some app looks unusually huge, those 12000 photos could stay hidden.

Better to block all app downloads without parental permission so it can't happen in the first place... but then that's not going to work either if a kid has a second phone hidden somewhere.